White flight from SW side (Chicago: appointed, real estate, to buy)

[ajolotl]

For kicks you should take a drive on Longwood drive from 95 to 111th, then go up the hill and do same on Seely, Hoyne, etc. Even better is the area against the Dan Ryan Woods. Some of the best homes in the city limits ...

Originally Posted by sukwoo

. Can't comment much on Beverly since I don't know it very well.

[jpramire]

Hey At1,

I don't think this has to do with color. I really don't. It is simply a matter of too many bad people in one area. That is the whole problem. Chinatown used to be crimeridden - because Chinese are more proned to crime - no simply a large number of bad people in one area. Pilsen was disgustingly bad - because Mexicans are more incline. No! Now, Pilsen is being revived (slowly, though). Once again, it is because too many bad people, who happened to be Mexican were concentrated in one area. My whole point on this is if white people stayed and allowed neighborhoods to become integrated slowly until stabilizing; there will not be too many gangbangers/poor people etc. concentrated in one area. THis is what plagues are country; not the fact that black people are all together; or mexicans are all together etc.

Even in my neighborhood; which is pretty well integrated there still seems to be a good amount of crime. Why is this? Because poverty is prevalent. Too many poor/struggling people in a small area.

This is what needs to be stopped in our city, and I"m guessing elsewhere in the country.

[At1WithNature]

Then we have to address why there is poverty. What causes one to be poor? For every 1 poor person who busts their behind and betters themselves there are at least 5 others who end up having kids as a teenager, dabble in a life of crime, or simply do NOT contribute to society. we can't simply hand these people money based off the number of children they have or based on their inability to be assertive and obtain a job. the problem is there are millions of people who are impoverished and prefer to abuse the system and get a free ride simply because they can. The problem is morality and many poor people don't share the same values as those of people who get up every day and work for a living. And since poor people have more kids, the circle just keeps getting bigger and bigger which further contributes to the fall of the American standard.

[jpramire]

Hey guys,

Since my thoughts/comments are somewhat well received here. And, since I have respect for many of you here as you all are very thoughtful. I'd like to pose a question.

How do you suggest I start to become involved in city/neighborhood development? Do I simply approach my alderman's office? This is what I'm thinking. I work full time and take classes; so, I don't have very much free time; but local politics/development has always been something I have taken a liking to, and I'd like to start to get involved on a limited basis.

Anybody have any thoughts?

Thanks,
JR

[jpramire]

Why is there poverty?!?!?!

I think that is simple. It is easier than working hard

I think to fix poverty is simple. Give opportunites to the younger generations. That is waht irritates me about this city so much - the school systems. From my perspective, (attended a private high school with my mom teaching in cps), the kids of the cps are given very limited resources. I know for a fact I would not be where I am today without my upbringing. If I were in the CPS, as I think is the case with the vast majority of those born to the upper middle class, I would have not have succeeded. Why is this? Because success was easy for me. It was practically given to me by going to private high school and grade school. I mean I would have to had stood out on the bad side to not be allowed in college. Unfortunately for today's city kids, it is the opposite. They have to stand out to make it to college. That is where all our resrouces need to be shed. I am conservative by nature and free hand me outs irriate me. But not for kids. I think all of our city's resrouces should be focused to protecting the kids of our neighborhoods. Every child is born with the potential to succeed. This is just taken away at an early age for the majority of the inner city youth.

[meatpuff]

Originally Posted by jpramire

I agree with both ajotol and sukwoo.

This is definitely a self-fulfilling prophesy. I think one way to potentially stop it is to kill it before it builds steam. I mean I guess I could go preach to all these places that are beginning to change and tell people to stop; but, I don't think taht is very practical
...
A quick though on places like Beverly, Oak Park. I think what protected these places was the inherent value these neighborhoods possessed. White people, although potentially still racist valued their homes/locations too much to even think about giving them up. From my limited experience, I know Oak Park and Beverly have extremely beautiful unique homes that maybe do not exist in places like South Shore/Gresham. I know for sure, they do not exist to as much a degree in Ashburn, which is, by the way, completely changed from my understanding. I mean think about it from a white person's perspecitve. Stay in Ashburn and potentially lose 1/2 your home's value, endanger your family; or pack up and move and start life a few more miles SW with just about the same home. Easy choice.

The last part of this shows you agree with the way I see it, but you mentioning racism shows we disagree somewhat. I think the pattern is so ingrained that racism is no longer important.

The collective knowledge is that once minorities start to move in, it is only a couple of decades until the area is crap. Beverly is an exception on the South Side and Homewood and Flossmoor are showing some resistance to this trend, but these pale next to the 40 or so other examples of neighborhoods and suburbs in the Southland that followed along like clockwork.

As it is for stocks, it doesn't matter what Microsoft is worth, it's what everyone thinks it is worth and will be worth in the future. The marketplace for homes is still just a marketplace. And as sukwoo describes, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If everyone thinks homes will be worth less in 15 years, they will fetch less in the marketplace today. That's all it takes. It doesn't require any concrete measurable changes in schools, crime, etc.

To see the power of this, just look what happened with the current housing crisis. For twenty years, housing prices kept going up, so people thought they would always keep going up in places like Florida, Las Vegas, Phoenix, and Chicago exurban areas. The perception was enough to keep the market price rising, and only extraordinary events were enough to finally get the market price to start reflecting the intrinsic value of the housing again.

So it's no longer about racism. I mean for some people it is, but these few are not enough to change the trajectory of the marketplace. For the rest, their homes are worth less as soon as the first black families move in, and only go down from there, so might as well sell right away.

I don't know how you break the pattern. A few more powerful examples like Beverly and Oak Park will help. It will eventually break, as any "asset bubble" (here in the opposite sense of usual) always does. I really hope I live long enough to see some of these beautiful South Side areas recover. Supposedly the housing stock in South Shore (that you mentioned) is actually gorgoeus. I've never been through there myself. I hope I get a chance to check it out sometime.

[promis1]

Originally Posted by At1WithNature

It's comments like these that are just so silly and show the degree of white guilt that plagues this country. Look at the prisons, look at the statistics, you know good and well which races are responsible for the most crimes and murders.



I support that opinion, as well, but I don't think we will ever know for certain.



I would say that no, you are right. they're no America but Africa is where the poorest of the poor are and it's been this way for thousands of years.



only someone who does not love or care for their families would "accept" lower education standards, more litter, and higher crime.

All very true and well said.

[Irishtom29]

Originally Posted by jpramire

Every child is born with the potential to succeed. This is just taken away at an early age for the majority of the inner city youth.

No, some people are stupid and will never succeed. Others are too lazy to succeed.

Expanding education makes it possible for some to succeed but ignores the fact that there simply aren't enough good paying jobs for everyone to make a good living. If everybody had a good education and worked hard too you'd still have those lousy paying jobs out there only they'd be filled by educated people. There's much of that now anyway.

I saw the West Side go down the drain in the 1960s and 70s and I have liitle use for lectures on what should'a-could'a. You deal with things as they are. Neighborhoods went from safe to unsafe so fast it'd make your head spin. As an individual you have little power dealing with immense social forces and changes. So when it's time to go you go.

[promis1]

Originally Posted by At1WithNature

thanks for the top notch quality post that is dripping in experience and truth. my only comment is how can you blame the families that moved out once the neighborhood started changing? They were smart enough to get out before the curb. before their pet dog escaped and was killed by neighborhood gang bangers in a dog fight. they were able to leave before their son was assaulted on his way to school. they were able to leave before their house or auto was burglarized.

(in chicago) never has there been a case where an all white neighborhood has 1 or 2 different families move in and then the immigration stops. it's a sign of things to come. whether those houses open up to the market through natural causes such as death or what not, bottomline is the 1st few minority families to move in are like scouts. they'll spread the word talking about how much better their new neighborhood and new schools are and soon many others, like them or worse than them, will follow. right or wrong, that is not the point. the point is, i wouldn't blame the people who moved out because they realized the neighborhood was changing and soon would do a complete 180. they were smart enough to get out when they could and get the most bang for their buck without endangering the lives of their loved ones. you can call them racists but they ended up being 100% right about the future of their neighborhood and were smart enough to be one of the firsts to act.

So true, the first minority families to move in the area are always solid. Its what follows them that is scary- it becomes a package deal and word spreads fast. seen it happen too many times.

[icebergsyndrome]

Originally Posted by Irishtom29

If everybody had a good education and worked hard too you'd still have those lousy paying jobs out there only they'd be filled by educated people. There's much of that now anyway.

Hey but if it wasn't for my lousy paying job this educated person would have never found this forum!