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I'm the OP. Greatly appreciate all the thoughtful responses.
My scale/density comments really don't make much sense. I've never lived in a downtown before but have always liked the feel of them, especially Manhattan. I like neighborhoods where as many people walk past you as drive past you. That's probably an arbitrary and weird way to put it. However, I also don't want to live in a downtown that only has tourists on the nights and weekends. My dislike of high-rises is mainly due to being really, irrationally scared of extreme heights. Don't even want to live on the 3rd floor of a 40-story building.
Jwaiter is right that I did not clearly articulate my reasons for not wanting Wicker Park or Bucktown. I don't have great reasons. I just have heard very good things about both neighborhoods and was underwhelmed in my brief walk through the area. I walked through before dinner and saw a few main streets with very cool bars and restaurants and hipster clothing shops. Residential side streets with brownstones split into 2-4 condos. Side streets with the vast majority of the housing were more residential than I probably would have expected, and the area was definitely more car-oriented than anticipated. I had to have a car to commute out to the suburbs, but we never used it on the weekend except for the occasional big shopping trip. It was extremely easy to park on our street, and while a lot of that had to do with the fact that we were permitted, I also know that many of my neighbors didn't have a car at all. I would definitely not call Wicker Park car oriented. At all.
But I was probably on the wrong streets. Looking at the for-sale condo listings - more so than for the for-rent apartment listings - I see a number of buildings, primarily in Bucktown, that fit my specs. I did walk through downtown when it was 2p on a Friday and bustling and then through Wicker Park/Bucktown around 4p, which was definitely pre-bustle, so my initial conceptions were surely not representative of primary fun goof-off times.
But:
What is it about Wicker Park/Bucktown besides restaurants and bars that make the area(s) great?
Looking on google and Yelp, I see yoga, cooking classes, pottery classes, comic bookstores - not really my things. The bookstore Myopic looks awesome.
More considerations (within which I draw conclusions based on cursory google search results):
1. I don't drink. Generally go to the bar a couple times a month with friends. Wicker Park seems to some awesome bars, but it's hardly a draw for me. Yes, there are a lot of great bars, but some solid restaurants as well. our favorites included Bin Wine Cafe (particularly for brunch), Francesca's Forno (and their big, beautiful windows make for excellent people watching at 6 corners) and Piece, which makes some of the best New Haven style pizza I've ever had. I still dream about that pizza. They're a microbrewery as well and they were the first place I ever saw live-band karaoke, which I love.
2. Love movies. New, indie, repertory. Logan Theatre is close to Bucktown, but that's just second-run newer releases in a neat old theater. The interesting stuff seems to be in the Loop (Siskell) or to the north. This is true, but even if you lived in the West Loop you'd have to take the el to any of these theaters anyway. I really enjoyed living right off North Ave so that we could easily take the bus or ride our bikes over to the Red Line stop at Clybourn and get anywhere on the North side.
3. Coworking (shared workspaces for rent by day/week/month). I do this sometimes instead of working from home. Strangely, Wicker Park and Bucktown seem to have very little in this regard. West Loop, River North, and other neighborhoods appear to have multiple options. Sorry don't know anything about this
4. Gym. There seem to be some nice CrossFit franchises and a good Jiu Jitsu place, but the regular gyms (Cheetah, Bucktown Fitness) look pretty mediocre. Closer to the Loop, there's the East Bank Club. And quality boxing/MMA with boxing and kickboxing gyms. The Bucktown fitness always seemed pretty nice and busy but not insanely so. I do remember it being quite pricey, but with rent prices in the area that's probably no huge surprise. East Bank is very nice, but unless you change your mind about a high rise you're not likely to be walking distance from it anyway. But it's a pretty easy walk from the Grand blue line stop if you did decide to go that route.
5. How are the WP/Bucktown grocery/market offerings? There's a Jewel and a Dominick's right in the neighborhood -- neither are one of the best in the city, but certainly workable for everyday shopping. There's a small, really cute neighborhood market called Olivia's on Wabansia that we loved when living there. The nicest Whole Foods in essentially the whole world is just across the river in the North/Clybourn corridor, and if you're looking for super cheap there's a Strack and Van Til on Elston but, fair warning, traffic to get there can be a real PITA and public transit access is very limited.
6. I randomly looked up some classes in subject areas I've taken in the past (photography, French, creative writing), and they all seem to be either downtown or north. Other cultural activities - exhibits, museums - are these in the WP/Bucktown area? There are a lot of art galleries in both Wicker Park, particularly in the Flatiron building at six corners and a couple stops further west on the Blue Line in Logan Square, and the annual Bucktown Art Fair is still one of the best smaller art fairs I've ever been to.
Visiting Chicago again in December to take another look. Will spend more time in WP/Bucktown on that trip. My company pays for travel to/from the airport, so maybe I need to worry less about having to take a cab to/from the train station or even all the way to the airport.
Grateful for any other input.
Hopefully some of that is useful for you! Best of luck, and be sure to ask more questions as you have them!
Hopefully some of that is useful for you! Best of luck, and be sure to ask more questions as you have them!
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to aragx6 again"
Balanced presentation of the ins & outs might still sway the OP to realize the stereotypes painted by those with perhaps a less thorough experience with living in Chicago than someone that still has a great handle on things...
My scale/density comments really don't make much sense. I've never lived in a downtown before but have always liked the feel of them, especially Manhattan. I like neighborhoods where as many people walk past you as drive past you. That's probably an arbitrary and weird way to put it...
I hardly think it's arbitrary; it's rare in America to be amongst pedestrians, and that makes such places pretty special. (And actually, in Manhattan many more people walk past you than drive past; about 2:1 in Midtown. At peak hours in Wicker Park, it might be around 1:1.)
Quick responses from an 8-year resident of greater Wicker Park & Bucktown:
0. You're right that there aren't many larger buildings in the area; it's pretty low in scale. Bucktown has several large loft buildings, particularly south of Milwaukee and east of Western. These were converted during the boom, so pricing might be good right now.
1. Milwaukee Avenue has scads of coffee shops (and there are more on Division, Chicago, etc.), but social life in Chicago largely revolves around alcohol.
2. Art movies will generally show at the Siskel, Landmark's Century, Facets Multimedia, or the Music Box. The latter two are just north of Bucktown (via the Ashland bus), and ArcLight is rumored to be a tenant in a new retail development at North/Clybourn.
3. Offices (and hotels) in Chicago are really hyper-concentrated in/around downtown, and so far that also includes co-working spaces. Several are in the West Loop, which is close by, and that also means that you'll be closer to downtown things.
4. Chicago Athletic Clubs has signed two leases in the neighborhood, on Division and on North. The former one is smaller but it's open. The latter will be quite large at 37,000 sq. ft.; 30-40K sq. ft. is typical for high-end fitness chains like Equinox or New York Sports Clubs.
5. Supermarkets surround the neighborhood, ranging from Jewel to Whole Foods Market. Within the neighborhood, I usually found what I needed at smaller grocers, like Olivia's on Wabansia, W Grocer, the Dill Pickle food co-op, farmers' markets, or even Aldi (don't knock it until you've tried their dark chocolate truffles). There are also supermarkets downtown, which are convenient for stopping by on the way home.
6. Again, Chicago's really centralized: museums, l'Alliance Francaise, etc. will generally be downtown. Smaller galleries are scattered throughout the city, but particularly in the West Loop, and often have exhibits and receptions.
You might like the West Loop or maybe River North. The big caveat for River North is that it has more empty-nesters in residence and far more tourists on the streets. West Loop (including Fulton River, Fulton Market, West Loop Gate, maybe Greektown) has much less commercial and foot traffic. The shops that are there tends towards high-concept luxuries -- art galleries, $20 cocktails -- rather than everyday necessities, although it currently beats WPB on supermarkets and gyms. As the saying goes, "it's fun to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there."
If I were you I think Bucktown but also so Ukranian Village could be good. Actually based on what yousaid check out Ukranian Village. Very clise to downtown, dense, very urban, on the Blue Line, with plenty of bars and restaurants.
1)I thought this was going to be a Wicker Park vs. Bucktown decision
2)I was actually more intrigued by River West, Fulton River District, and even Printers Row.
3)I think it was just the feel of the scale and density. Wicker Park and Bucktown probably actually have a lot more street activity at 10p on a Friday night
What didn't you like about the "scale and density?" It's very dense. The scale? Were people too short, ceilings too low? What the hell does this mean?
4)want to be closer to a downtown feel (without being in a high rise).
Maybe Gold Coast?
For many people (and I suspect the O.P.) when they say "urban" they mean "commercial." In that sense, Wicker Park - outside of a few stretches of the main commercial strips - is not very urban. And the population density of the area backs me up on that. At about 20,000 people per square mile, Wicker Park is a nice area, but that density really only puts it marginally above the density of pre-car small towns. If "urban" means commercial or dense like Manhattan or the European capitals or even Brooklyn for that matter, Wicker Park is really on the lower end of the scale. That's not me being argumentative, that's an objective fact verifiable with objective criteria.
Both Wicker Park and Bucktown are also mostly 2-4 story buildings, many of which are what we know as 3-flats, which the O.P. said he doesn't like. Personally, I think he should get over that dislike to open up his options of locations since a huge portion of Chicago housing is that kind of building, but it's his life to live.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aragx6
^It was this line: WP/B-Town are the epitome of Brownstone neighborhoods.
Yep, although even there most of the buildings are brick and not stone.
And put you about 30 minutes further from the airport than Wicker Park/Bucktown do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjefferson1980
...
My scale/density comments really don't make much sense. I've never lived in a downtown before but have always liked the feel of them, especially Manhattan. I like neighborhoods where as many people walk past you as drive past you. That's probably an arbitrary and weird way to put it. However, I also don't want to live in a downtown that only has tourists on the nights and weekends. My dislike of high-rises is mainly due to being really, irrationally scared of extreme heights. Don't even want to live on the 3rd floor of a 40-story building.
There is really no place in the U.S. outside of Manhattan that is like Manhattan. The closest you'll get in Chicago is the Gold Coast. There are some non-high-rise apartment buildings in that area, but you should really also work on your irrational fear of building heights - it will even curtail your shopping and movie options here if you don't get it under control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjefferson1980
Jwaiter is right that I did not clearly articulate my reasons for not wanting Wicker Park or Bucktown. I don't have great reasons. I just have heard very good things about both neighborhoods and was underwhelmed in my brief walk through the area. I walked through before dinner and saw a few main streets with very cool bars and restaurants and hipster clothing shops. Residential side streets with brownstones split into 2-4 condos. Side streets with the vast majority of the housing were more residential than I probably would have expected, and the area was definitely more car-oriented than anticipated.
A huge portion of Chicago housing stock is made up of flats in 2-4 story buildings. It's similar to London in that regard. You are right that Wicker Park and Bucktown, while cool, are not really that dense on a global scale.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjefferson1980
But I was probably on the wrong streets. Looking at the for-sale condo listings - more so than for the for-rent apartment listings - I see a number of buildings, primarily in Bucktown, that fit my specs. I did walk through downtown when it was 2p on a Friday and bustling and then through Wicker Park/Bucktown around 4p, which was definitely pre-bustle, so my initial conceptions were surely not representative of primary fun goof-off times. ...
You were probably on the right streets. WP/B doesn't have the density to have non-stop action, but it does liven up in the evenings and on weekend days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjefferson1980
1. I don't drink. Generally go to the bar a couple times a month with friends. Wicker Park seems to some awesome bars, but it's hardly a draw for me.
If you've primarily lived in a driving culture previously, you should find a way to fit into a drinking culture, because almost every city with good transit has more of a drinking culture simply because the risks are lower. Even if you don't increase your alcohol consumption, be aware that a lot more revolves around bars due to a long German, Czech and Polish influence of beer-drinking, and the ability to get around without driving.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjefferson1980
2. Love movies. New, indie, repertory. Logan Theatre is close to Bucktown, but that's just second-run newer releases in a neat old theater. The interesting stuff seems to be in the Loop (Siskell) or to the north.
Chicago's movie scene is, sadly, a shadow of its past. Others may try to defend it, but it's really gotten weak in the past 15 years. I can count at least 15 theatres I have seen films in that are now closed, and there are really only two new ones. The Siskel I don't count as new because it replaced a venue in the Art Institute. If you want to see non-mainstream films, the Siskel in the Loop, the Landmark Century in Lakeview, the Music Box in Lakeview and the not-really-a-theatre-but-a-place-to-see-projected-movies Facet's in Lincoln Park are your best bets. The University of Chicago also has some interesting film series at times. A few of the large chain theaters also have tried to also show some, such as the AMC River East 21 in Streeterville and the Cinemark Century in Evanston. Sometimes the Lake Theater in Oak Park also has interesting films, and occasionally some other place will, too, but not predictably.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjefferson1980
3. Coworking (shared workspaces for rent by day/week/month). I do this sometimes instead of working from home. Strangely, Wicker Park and Bucktown seem to have very little in this regard. West Loop, River North, and other neighborhoods appear to have multiple options.
Your assessment is accurate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjefferson1980
5. How are the WP/Bucktown grocery/market offerings?
Poor from a pedestrian standpoint. To have good walking access to groceries, you actually have to go apartment-hunting with a grocery store in mind. If you live near Ashland/Milwaukee, you'd be close to an autocentric Jewel. Otherwise, there aren't many real grocery options. A few convenience stores, a few specialty grocers with expensive, limited selection, and still a few latino markets (used to be more, gentrification is driving more and more out).
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjefferson1980
6. I randomly looked up some classes in subject areas I've taken in the past (photography, French, creative writing), and they all seem to be either downtown or north. Other cultural activities - exhibits, museums - are these in the WP/Bucktown area?
A lot of of those activities on the downtown and north lakefront neighborhoods, fewer in Wicker Park.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjefferson1980
Visiting Chicago again in December to take another look. Will spend more time in WP/Bucktown on that trip. My company pays for travel to/from the airport, so maybe I need to worry less about having to take a cab to/from the train station or even all the way to the airport.
Grateful for any other input.
Find a place to stay for your trip using Airbnb in Wicker Park or whatever other area (or if it's a long trip, a few places in different neighborhoods). That will give you a better feel for an area, what at least one piece of the housing stock is like, and access to a local to ask questions of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicagoist123
If I were you I think Bucktown but also so Ukranian Village could be good. Actually based on what yousaid check out Ukranian Village. Very clise to downtown, dense, very urban, on the Blue Line, with plenty of bars and restaurants.
Ukrainian Village is no more dense than Wicker Park. If anything it's somewhat less dense and definitely less urban in the sense of the word the O.P. means. It's definitely further from the Blue Line. One benefit is that it does have a more pedestrian-friendly grocery store in the middle.
Ukrainian Village, Wicker Park and Bucktown are all nice areas. They do not have the range of amenities available in River North, Gold Coast, Lincoln Park and some of the other north neighborhoods. Wicker Park and Bucktown do have better access to O'Hare. The Fulton River area, River West and parts of River North nearest the River all have good access to the Blue Line to O'Hare, but are a little further. If you're willing to sacrifice some amenities for cost and faster access to O'Hare, you can look at Logan Square.
If you've primarily lived in a driving culture previously, you should find a way to fit into a drinking culture, because almost every city with good transit has more of a drinking culture simply because the risks are lower. Even if you don't increase your alcohol consumption, be aware that a lot more revolves around bars due to a long German, Czech and Polish influence of beer-drinking, and the ability to get around without driving.
This is the first post I have ever read where someone was told to start drinking in order to better his social life. I guess that in a nutshell explains why my life is stagnant - not enough time spent in eastern European influenced bars.
Not.
This whole "must live near bars" is so foreign to me, as an American born Black male. My entire life has been spent trying to get away from bars, because that's usually where the trouble starts... I'm thinking what the hipsters on this board call a "bar," no blue-collar guy from the Southwest Side would consider setting foot into.
A "bar" is where people with little to lose (the 47%ers ?) go to crawl into a bottle, talk trash, flirt with women of similar social status, maybe get into a fight, bet on football or the "numbers," and occasionally see a stabbing or shooting. I'm pretty sure that if I walked into a bar on south Western Ave, I would be in a fight within 15 minutes or arrival... No thanks, guys.
This is the first post I have ever read where someone was told to start drinking in order to better his social life. I guess that in a nutshell explains why my life is stagnant - not enough time spent in eastern European influenced bars.
Not.
This whole "must live near bars" is so foreign to me, as an American born Black male. My entire life has been spent trying to get away from bars, because that's usually where the trouble starts... I'm thinking what the hipsters on this board call a "bar," no blue-collar guy from the Southwest Side would consider setting foot into.
A "bar" is where people with little to lose (the 47%ers ?) go to crawl into a bottle, talk trash, flirt with women of similar social status, maybe get into a fight, bet on football or the "numbers," and occasionally see a stabbing or shooting. I'm pretty sure that if I walked into a bar on south Western Ave, I would be in a fight within 15 minutes or arrival... No thanks, guys.
You know what, I've lived in Chicago 17 years. You know how many bar fights I've see? A man with no hands could count them with all his fingers.
You know how many business meetings, important social functions and whatnot have happened in bars? Dozens a year, even now that I'm nearly 40, and in my 20s, dozens a month. Drinking and bars do not always equate with picking up chicks, fighting, causing problems, etc., for professionals, but they often will equate to places to conduct business. Professionals don't use bars to drink to excess and get smashed, they use them as an adult coffee house. Maybe you're unfamiliar with professional-level drinking establishments, but they do exist and being able to socialize with fellow professionals is key to networking and career growth.
Now, you can substitute *some* of that with other social activities. But not all of it.
So go ahead, call the people I socialize "the 47%ers" if you want, but they include lawyers, doctors, businessmen, teachers, millionaires, small business owners, lots of tech people, executives, middle managers, and everything in between. I don't have any idea who you are, but there's no way you would have your attitude if you were familiar with white collar professionals in the central area. At least a couple of those guys I used to get beers with are raising a couple millions dollars to start their own brewery now. If they were sad-sacks looking for a handout, they'd not be working every day to build a business doing something they enjoy.
So, yeah, throw insults at me based on your own bad experiences, but your experiences don't reflect my own or those of many of the professional class in Chicago.
Now, you don't have to drink to be comfortable operating in a drinking establishment, but for a lot of jobs, there will be a lot of socializing in drinking establishments. Not drinking is fine, but knowing how to navigate the culture isn't something to brush off with stupid insults about the so-called 47%.
This is the first post I have ever read where someone was told to start drinking in order to better his social life. I guess that in a nutshell explains why my life is stagnant - not enough time spent in eastern European influenced bars.
Not.
This whole "must live near bars" is so foreign to me, as an American born Black male. My entire life has been spent trying to get away from bars, because that's usually where the trouble starts... I'm thinking what the hipsters on this board call a "bar," no blue-collar guy from the Southwest Side would consider setting foot into.
A "bar" is where people with little to lose (the 47%ers ?) go to crawl into a bottle, talk trash, flirt with women of similar social status, maybe get into a fight, bet on football or the "numbers," and occasionally see a stabbing or shooting. I'm pretty sure that if I walked into a bar on south Western Ave, I would be in a fight within 15 minutes or arrival... No thanks, guys.
The hell? Apparently you are right, you never go to bars, because you would not make such ridiculous statements. What you have said is the equivalent of: Don't ever drive a car because you might get into an accident.
I am very social and 99% of my outings to bars and almost everyone else I know have been to get drinks with friends, dance and socialize. It's a rarity that there is a fight and most guys are too much of ******* to go pick up women, nor are women that usually that easy where it goes anywhere. It happens but it's rare.
Haha uhm okay. Sounds like someone has never been to a bar. Lol.
Granted not all bars is their dancing but it certainly is not uncommon. In places like Wrigleyville, Lincoln Park and Wicker many if not most bars have a lot dancing.
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Great post!
