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In all fairness, isn't Berwyn going through the same demographic changes that Garfield Ridge is going through?
Drover is correct. It went through what Garfield Ridge appears to be going through now starting in the late 1980s. Much of this was due to an aging population -- by 1990 Berwyn was the second oldest Chicago suburb per the Local Community Fact Book -- but there was white flight mixed in there too as Hispanics began replacing the seniors. And due to rising home values during the 1990s and during the housing boom, it was easy for them to "cash out" at a profit. Many moved to places like Plainfield, Darien, Tinley/Orland Park, etc.
In Berwyn's case, it managed to keep relatively diverse due to its appeal to professionals from Oak Park and the north side of Chicago, former renters who wanted an affordable house but wanted to live close to the City in a somewhat urban environment. The good housing stock and access to public transit no doubt helped. It also attracted a not insignificant gay and lesbian population. I think it's safe to say that there was almost complete turnover of the white, blue collar demographic between the late 1980s and the early/mid 2000s.
The community faces challenges (not enough of the newer professional residents send their kids to the public schools, for example), but it seems to be attracting an even mix between Hispanics and non-Hispanics, particularly now after the housing market imploded. That, coupled with the lack of "subsidy" from a hot housing market, will likely keep things stable and I don't think it will fall into another "flight" pattern like some other communities might. Of course, no one can predict the future, but I think it is at less risk than areas with less diverse demographics.
I recently asked someone I know who lives in Garfield Ridge if they are seeing young professionals buying there. He said they are not. I guess some there are calling it "Garcia Ridge" now, IMHO not a good sign if you're hoping for stability. This is only one person's opinion of course, and ClearRidge will hopefully attract a balance of demographics to replace those who move due to age or otherwise.
Drover is correct. It went through what Garfield Ridge appears to be going through now starting in the late 1980s. Much of this was due to an aging population -- by 1990 Berwyn was the second oldest Chicago suburb per the Local Community Fact Book -- but there was white flight mixed in there too as Hispanics began replacing the seniors. And due to rising home values during the 1990s and during the housing boom, it was easy for them to "cash out" at a profit. Many moved to places like Plainfield, Darien, Tinley/Orland Park, etc.
In Berwyn's case, it managed to keep relatively diverse due to its appeal to professionals from Oak Park and the north side of Chicago, former renters who wanted an affordable house but wanted to live close to the City in a somewhat urban environment. The good housing stock and access to public transit no doubt helped. It also attracted a not insignificant gay and lesbian population. I think it's safe to say that there was almost complete turnover of the white, blue collar demographic between the late 1980s and the early/mid 2000s.
The community faces challenges (not enough of the newer professional residents send their kids to the public schools, for example), but it seems to be attracting an even mix between Hispanics and non-Hispanics, particularly now after the housing market imploded. That, coupled with the lack of "subsidy" from a hot housing market, will likely keep things stable and I don't think it will fall into another "flight" pattern like some other communities might. Of course, no one can predict the future, but I think it is at less risk than areas with less diverse demographics.
I recently asked someone I know who lives in Garfield Ridge if they are seeing young professionals buying there. He said they are not. I guess some there are calling it "Garcia Ridge" now, IMHO not a good sign if you're hoping for stability. This is only one person's opinion of course, and ClearRidge will hopefully attract a balance of demographics to replace those who move due to age or otherwise.
Bru ,you have valid points here. In 1987 my ex and I came to visit Chicago land and we got to explore various neighborhoods and inner suburbs and Berwyn was one of them. Even back then I have noticed an increase of Latinos there and they seemed pretty decent and never bothered anyone. There were even more in the neighboring Cicero who seemed more lower income but they more or less kept to theirselves and we did not have any problems. White flight was still pretty rampant back then and since it was still during the Reagan era and " bigger and newer was better" people were able to afford to "cash out" and move to the outer suburbs and get a shiny new mini-van ( they were the forerunners of today's SUVs). Even there maybe still some white flight occuring today it is now much less rampant than it was in decades past. Reason being as everyone knows is the housing crunch and the gas prices just keep getting more and more horrific and people can no longer easily put up a sale sign and pull their suitcases out of the closet, pack and move .I kept trying to stress that Garfield Ridge and other far Southwest Side neighborhoods will be a hard sell for the urban professional because of the ho-hum housing stock and the fact that the area is more carcentric than inner desirable burbs . Like I before said much of the demographic change is due to white attrition ( even though there is still some white flight going but on a much lesser level). I personally do not think GR and other neighborhoods around will suffer complete white flight because whites and hispanics are known to live side by side and it will be not as easy for many whites to flee in this day's uncertain economy. I believe they will probably learn to get along with each other.
Good points. I definitely think the weak housing market and high fuel prices will be speed bumps to an influx out of GR, or anywhere for that matter. Of course, their effect will depend on the demographics. Obviously, they'll have no impact whatsoever on senior turnover. And if that turnover is too one-sided, residents, particularly those who bought their homes pre-boom, will be tempted to cash out, and justify it by the lower home prices elsewhere. And once that starts, it might accelerate pretty rapidly. That may be particularly true in communities which are seeing more recent changes, given that the current residents in those situations didn't "buy into" diversity.
In Berwyn, a rather substantial percentage of the population (about 56%) moved here within the last 10 years, so it'll be hard for them to go without incurring a loss. And maybe more important, most of those who moved here even within the last 20 years (about 80%) knew the community wasn't "monocultural" when they came in, so they're less put off by living around those who are of different racial, ethnic and socioeconomic backgrounds. And you have to figure if that if the 20% who have been here more than 20 years stayed through the housing boom and the demographic changes of the 1990s and 2000s, they're not likely to flee now.
A common reason residents give for leaving urban areas nowadays is schools. Easy access to private schools (or magnet or charter schools) can thus offer some stabilization. I don't know how GR is on that score.
Housing stock and neighborhood amenities are huge factors. The kind of places that have homes that are larger, prettier and more suited to the things that familes enjoy are the much bigger reasons for shifts than race these days. I agree with Bru that folks that bought in areas like Berwyn or Garfield Ridge or any other area 10-15 or even 20 years ago are very different than folks that were part of the "post WW II" types. Yes, lots of those "greatest generation" husbands and fathers did keep the world free from Nazis or Imperal Japan, but when it came to racial equality they had very different habits. The threat of "minority quotas" changed the way that workplaces hired, shifted "hand me down" City jobs toward something that had to undergo the scrutiny of Federal Courts and even meant that sales and rentals of houses could be grounds for discrimination suits.
The vast majority of folks whose attitudes were shaped by riots and violence have retired or past away. I am old enough to remember some of the bad old ways, but can't really say that such actions directly impacted me the way it did folks older than me...
When it comes to the kinds of things that Oak Park offers to residents that are lacking in Garfield Ridge the obvious stuff is the kind of things that have made Oak Park more appealing than the tracts of rapidly built little ranches in Chicago for decades -- the homes and lots are bigger. The parks are nicer. The schools are less bueracratic. Even the shopping and restaurant dining is little nicer, a little less "down market".
Good points. I definitely think the weak housing market and high fuel prices will be speed bumps to an influx out of GR, or anywhere for that matter. Of course, their effect will depend on the demographics. Obviously, they'll have no impact whatsoever on senior turnover. And if that turnover is too one-sided, residents, particularly those who bought their homes pre-boom, will be tempted to cash out, and justify it by the lower home prices elsewhere. And once that starts, it might accelerate pretty rapidly. That may be particularly true in communities which are seeing more recent changes, given that the current residents in those situations didn't "buy into" diversity.
In Berwyn, a rather substantial percentage of the population (about 56%) moved here within the last 10 years, so it'll be hard for them to go without incurring a loss. And maybe more important, most of those who moved here even within the last 20 years (about 80%) knew the community wasn't "monocultural" when they came in, so they're less put off by living around those who are of different racial, ethnic and socioeconomic backgrounds. And you have to figure if that if the 20% who have been here more than 20 years stayed through the housing boom and the demographic changes of the 1990s and 2000s, they're not likely to flee now.
A common reason residents give for leaving urban areas nowadays is schools. Easy access to private schools (or magnet or charter schools) can thus offer some stabilization. I don't know how GR is on that score.
Many of the seniors will probably pass on before they are able to sell. It will be their kids that won't be interested in buying there and they are the ones who will be eager to cash out and sell the house at a lesser value.In many cases they have already left the neighborhood due to going away to college, joining the military, accepting jobs elsewhere, marrying someone outside and relocating elsewhere etc. Since most of them have kids they are not likely to come back to the neighborhood because of the schools are not up to par and plus the housing stock is less attractive to them . The schools need revamping big time and changes for the better need to made soon . Magnet and charter schools are the best thing educationwise in recent times and hopefully they can become the norm sometime in the future. With this economy getting worse and worse people are simply going to have to stay put and try to improve their areas as flight is becoming less and less as an option. There is no way my husband and I are able to afford to move out of our current neighborhood and in agewise and conditionwise it is the same as GR. In fact we are in Columbus Ohio where the cost of living is much less than Chicagoland so in essence we could not afford even Garfield Ridge or areas around it and forget Berwyn for us. Instead of flighting many of our neighbors ( including us )have gotten dogs who are deterrents, installed alarm systems and built privacy fences and crime has reduced. That is so much easier on our wallets as opposed to packing up and moving. My husband has a very decent paying job ( by today's standards) and we are just getting by and no we are not living high on the hog - we just barely are able to meet all our bills for just our basic needs each month.By the way our neighborhood is diverse -60% white, 30% black and 10% Hispanic and other. It has been this way since the 1980s. So IMO even though there is some white flight still going on, it is more attrition because people are not able to move to more outer and car centric areas as much as they were able to do so in the past few decades.
The forces that will drive price declines in many older areas are hard economics -- City of Chicago is expensively run and high taxes will increase to feed the armies of union workers....
If "regular buyers" see that they get more for their money in better run communities they will avoid the bad deals in Chicago unless the price to purchase gap is so attractive that it offsets higher taxes.
Housing stock and neighborhood amenities are huge factors. The kind of places that have homes that are larger, prettier and more suited to the things that familes enjoy are the much bigger reasons for shifts than race these days. I agree with Bru that folks that bought in areas like Berwyn or Garfield Ridge or any other area 10-15 or even 20 years ago are very different than folks that were part of the "post WW II" types. Yes, lots of those "greatest generation" husbands and fathers did keep the world free from Nazis or Imperal Japan, but when it came to racial equality they had very different habits. The threat of "minority quotas" changed the way that workplaces hired, shifted "hand me down" City jobs toward something that had to undergo the scrutiny of Federal Courts and even meant that sales and rentals of houses could be grounds for discrimination suits.
The vast majority of folks whose attitudes were shaped by riots and violence have retired or past away. I am old enough to remember some of the bad old ways, but can't really say that such actions directly impacted me the way it did folks older than me...
When it comes to the kinds of things that Oak Park offers to residents that are lacking in Garfield Ridge the obvious stuff is the kind of things that have made Oak Park more appealing than the tracts of rapidly built little ranches in Chicago for decades -- the homes and lots are bigger. The parks are nicer. The schools are less bueracratic. Even the shopping and restaurant dining is little nicer, a little less "down market".
Like your post. The beautiful housing stock in Berwyn is much more attractive than the cute but "plain and simple" housing stock in Garfield Ridge. GR's housing stock was mass produced post war suburban feel while Berwyn's is vintage and charming. Plus the latter has much more amenities such as walkability ,great access to mass transit and have many shops and restaurants than the former. However it is adjacent to Cicero and many people may be put off by that. Cicero in not the best but it is not the worse either . Even though it has been heavily Latino since the late 80s there are much more nastier places in Chicagoland and it is like Mayberry compared to neighborhoods like Englewood and Austin. Also Oak Park housing stock is gorgeous and the walkability , access to mass transit and shops and restaurants are plentiful. The only down side to that is the not so good Austin is right next to the town and one has to be aware of his or her surroundings in the easternmost blocks of OP. Otherwise thumbs up to both Berwyn and Oak Park.
The only down side to that is the not so good Austin is right next to the town and one has to be aware of his or her surroundings in the easternmost blocks of OP. Otherwise thumbs up to both Berwyn and Oak Park.
No offense, but I wish people would be more specific when they talk about east Oak Park. You did indicate the "easternmost blocks" (I'm guessing you're talking about Humphry and Taylor), but seeing that people usually bring up the "staying west of the Ridgeland line", the eastern parts seem to get slumped together. Since I've been considering buying in Oak Park, I've been researching the east side by driving around, walking about, talking to people who live there, studying the crime maps etc... and there are huge differences depending on how east or west you go, and how north or south you go. For example, Lombard is really different if you are at Lake or Madison compared to Division. Lombard starts to get nicer when you go north of Chicago. Hayes is relatively well maintained near Division, but as you start going south past Chicago, it's not as nice IMO. When you look at the crime maps for each month, most of the crime is concentrated up and down Lake, Madison and Chicago, and also along Austin. Humphry and Taylor get their fare share of garage break-ins. If you look between Lombard and Ridgeland from Chicago to North, you'll notice that it gets a similar amount of crime (garage break-in for the most part) as the more affluent far north middle and north west sections. The only area that gets a few less break-ins (with a very small margin) is the section between Oak Park and Ridgeland, Chicago and Division. Granted, the lots are bigger west of Ridgeland, but that is not a true reflection of the crime.
I would rather to live on Hayes near Division, than Cuyler near Lake, and safety is a big concern for me.
Garage break-ins are not really a safety thing except when they escalate into confrontation. What some of the minor property crime may, however, be indicative of is the sort of thing that Guilinani fought against in NYC -- police force that lets the little things slide ends up with major crimes too.
The responsiveness of police to the property crimes and how supportive the community is of the police efforts, coupled with courts that do not condone repeated criminal behavior no matter how "minor" are bing factors in not allowing property crimes to lead to reduced levels of safety.
Driving around is one way to assess whether things are moving in a direction that is worrisome, so too is it worth the effort to attend meetings of the local government and police. If folks express support for enforcement of the laws vs expressions that amount to forgiveness for lawlessness it says a great deal about the naivete of the politically correct...
Walk around in addition to driving in Oak Park. My block, just west of the high school (I rent btw) is one of the more affluent blocks.
You cite the blocks between ridgeland and oak park and chicago and division as very low crime. These are mostly 1MM plus homes, especially as you approach oak park. I routinely see cops pulled over to the side of the road with lights out trying to spot people running stop signs though I suspicion they are really there to stop suspicious cars.
Once you get 2-3 blocks west of austin, things get much better in Oak Park. The further north you go the less you need to go west to avoid the crime of austin.
Lombard and augusta is much better than say lombard and madison.
As far as berwyn is concerned, it is working class community that has shifted from white to hispanic. Nothing wrong with the people there. Oak Park is just more educated and affluent as a whole (this is well-known).
I workout sometimes at the ballys in north riverside and see a lot of people from berwyn there. I much prefer that crowd to the punks I see at xsport at fullerton and narragansett. People at that ballys are older and more stable. People are more polite and you see people that have known each other for decades. I like the stability of this.
I still prefer Oak Park, particularly for its schools but I can definitely understand why someone without kids would consider moving to Berwyn for its affordability (south of cermak of course as north of there it gets rough).
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