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Actually, I drove it about 88K miles before I threw it away. But my point was that my opinion of my Honda doesn't affect your opinion of your Honda. So why does your opinion of the Chevrolet Volt get to override the opinions of 2000 people who bought one just last month?
The first battery tested last week didn't catch fire. But a battery test on Nov. 17 initially experienced a temporary temperature increase, and on Thursday caught fire while being monitored. Another battery tested on Nov. 18, which was rotated 180 degrees within hours after the test, began to smoke and emit sparks shortly after the rotation.
In other words, one test w/o a fire and two tests where the battery eventually caught fire. Also note that these tests were unlike the same tests performed on gasoline-powered vehicles, where normally the fuel is drained after the crash.
The last paragraphs from the above link:
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GM and NHTSA have pointed out that cars with gasoline-powered engines are susceptible to fires after a crash.
In the event of a crash, NHTSA's advice to consumers is to do the same thing they would do in a gasoline-powered car – get out of the vehicle and move a safe distance away. The agency also recommends against storing a severely damaged electric car in a garage or near other vehicles.
If you wrap your Honda around a tree are you planning on sitting around in the car?
Ive driven plenty of prius plug ins.. You certainly can drive around at normal speeds and acceleration without the engine assist. And yes, the range is rather limited on the PIP, but that's all battery size, not any tech that GM has over anyone else. The Volt is bigger on the outside but MUCH smaller on the inside than a PIP. Again, battery size. The PIP could match the EV range of the Volt, but then it wouldn't be able to seat 5 adults or have as much cargo room. With a 5'10"+ driver, a 5'10" passenger is NOT getting into the rear of a Volt.
Toyota would have to completely re-engineer the Prius platform to be able to hold a battery pack that could match the Volt. They chose to use the existing platform for obvious cost savings reasons. You are correct that it's simply a matter of how many batteries you have to extend the range.
I will argue on the performace aspect though on three counts:
1. The PIP does not perform normally for me when I drive one. Any more than around 50% throttle application or load like when climbing a grade and you are in the gas engine and if you get on the highway, you are using the gas motor. Neither is true in the Volt. The Volt can use pure electric under all conditions until the charge has been depleted, the exception being going over 70mph on a highway when the gas engine provides some assist. That was done because the car was more efficient using a little gas assist under that situation then just using the engine to charge the battery.
2. The PIP's range is not useful for the average commuter where the Volt's range is. Obviously Toyota could have put a bigger battery pack in, but they didn't. My guess is that the cost would have gone up significantly as well. There are plenty of Volt owners using no or very little gas, PIP owners can't say the same thing.
3. While driving dynamics and electrics/hybrids don't tend to go hand-in-hand, the Volt owing to the overall design and placement of the batteries is a much more balanced and composed vehicle. A Volt is far more sure-footed and capable of being pushed around then a PIP or even regular Prius.
As for the seating, the Volts rear seat isn't any more cramped then in pretty much any other compact car. It's not Prius spacious, but that has always been one of the Prius' strong suits.
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As far as Apple's MAC products catching on fire, don't care as I'd never own any of those either.
Just wanted to use that as an example of a company with seemingly impeccable engineering accumen that has had issues with new products.
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And there is no "optioning out" a PIP.. They only come in 2 flavors, basic, and advanced with the self parking feature etc.. compared to the Volt's one. What feature does the Volt have that is not in the PIP standard version at 32,990 before 2,500 tax break? I'm not up one every feature inside the Volt.
The basic is $32,000 and the advanced is $39,525. It's hard to go feature-to-feature do to the way the vehicles are bundled. A Volt optioned the same as an advanced PIP is around $41,105, hence why I said there is about a $2k difference similarly optioned. None of the prices above include destination; it is $760 for the PIP and $850 for the Volt.
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I'm still not seeing what "next gen tech" is in the Volt that is not readily available to other manufacturers, besides a bigger hybrid battery.
It all has to do with how the engines interface. The Volt contains two electric motors/generators, one 111kW unit that is the primary drive unit, one 54kW secondary unit that can assist driving the vehicle or work as a generator and then the ICE. In a regular hybrid like the Prius and even the PIP, they don't have that primary electric motor/generator. They only have the secondary one that can either drive the wheels or work as a generator. The PIP has a larger version of this motor/generator then the regular Prius.
The way these three motors interact and the complex planetary gear set that controls them is what makes the Volt "next gen". A Prius is a VERY simple design compared to the Volt. These three motors are why the Volt engine can be run to do nothing but charge the batteries to allow the main electric motor to drive the car. The size of the main electric motor is also the reason the Volt can operate so normally as a pure electric.
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Originally Posted by LRPct
If they can't sell any, whatever the reason is, that certainly is not a success.. "making sense" and wishing for big sales fantasy land is not the same as what is happening in the real world where even GM's low expectations are not even being meet as far as numbers sold.. Couldn't have anything to do with the reliability of GM products being lower than the industry standard as a whole now could it.???
GM had no choice but to try something different. No one can build a hybrid system like the one the Prius has because Toyota owns the rights to that system. GM developed something new and the new tech costs money, but as is evidenced by the price of the PIP, not that much more then what is out there. We can go around and around about reliability and rankings, but I don't think people aren't buying Volt's based on their perception of GM. If that was true, GM wouldn't have been gaining market share over the past couple of years while Toyota was losing ground.
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Originally Posted by sailordave
If the tech is so good, couldn't GM enter into a contract with other auto makers to allow them to use this tech?
They could. This is basically what Toyota did. I don't think the question has come up yet, but they can do it if they have to. Toyota was under obligation since they received R&D funding for the Prius from the Japanese government. This is something Toyota likes to deny, but the fact remains the Prius was invented by a collaboration of Japanese firms and the cost was offset by money from the Japanese government. The "strings" was that Toyota must license the tech to other companies who want it. GM is under no such obligations.
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Originally Posted by Marv101
The Detroit 3 sell a substantial percentage of their cars to car rental companies and other fleet buyers every single month, but if a company expresses an interest in buying some Volts, let them start the discussion.
I'm not really sure what you are getting at, but I hate the bashing on the Detroit 3 for fleet sales. The fleet market is massive and it needs to be served. It's not even the rental car fleets that make up a large part of the volume, it's private fleets and in particular pickup trucks that make up the vast majority of that volume. Fleets buy from the Big 3, because they get good support, the processes are well established, the fleets know the vehicles and yes, the prices are good. People always rail on this aspect as if it's a negative, but when businesses that rely on these vehicles as an integral part of their operations are picking the Detroit 3, that isn't a negative to me.
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Originally Posted by LRPct
The prius c sold more in the FIRST 3days than the volt and leaf COMBINED for their while run!?!?.. the market tells all..
The market says that people are more focused on total ownership cost. A Prius C is a very cheap way to get from A to B these days if you need a new car. A Volt, Leaf or even a PIP are simply not going to offer the same kind of "value". The Leaf, because of it being a pure electric so it cannot be an only car and the Volt and PIP because of their cost.
If you want to argue on pure total ownership cost, then no, none of these cars makes any sense. In the case of the Volt and yes, even the PIP, I see the next step in cars, where you can do the majority of your driving on electric, but still have the ability to fill with fuel and drive anywhere.
The thing I like most about the Volt is that it was designed to handle any kind of ICE or engine as the generator piece. There are Volt's with diesels, Volt's using CNG, hydrogen Volt's, etc. GM chose the basic gas motor and IMO, that is the worst and least efficient one they could have chosen. Imagine a Volt using dirt cheap and clean CNG or a Volt using a high efficient diesel as the generator element. This is the next evolution.
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Originally Posted by LRPct
I work in the industry and get to drive all these "new" cars in real world conditions way before any general public.. I certainly "get it", probally much more than you.
I work in the industry too and get exposed to a lot of this stuff. A few of the regular posters know where I work and what I do, so it isn't just a boast to inflate my credentials. Still though, I don't think my ability to drive cars pre-retail or get exposure and info on everything coming down the pike makes me "get it" anymore then anyone else. The reason being is that every situation is unique and peoples needs vary. There are cars that I don't like that are the perfect match for some people. Basically, keep an open mind and if you are "in the industry" I would have thought you would have known why the Volt was different.
Toyota would have to completely re-engineer the Prius platform to be able to hold a battery pack that could match the Volt. They chose to use the existing platform for obvious cost savings reasons. You are correct that it's simply a matter of how many batteries you have to extend the range.
I will argue on the performace aspect though on three counts:
1. The PIP does not perform normally for me when I drive one. Any more than around 50% throttle application or load like when climbing a grade and you are in the gas engine and if you get on the highway, you are using the gas motor. Neither is true in the Volt. The Volt can use pure electric under all conditions until the charge has been depleted, the exception being going over 70mph on a highway when the gas engine provides some assist. That was done because the car was more efficient using a little gas assist under that situation then just using the engine to charge the battery.
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2. The PIP's range is not useful for the average commuter where the Volt's range is. Obviously Toyota could have put a bigger battery pack in, but they didn't. My guess is that the cost would have gone up significantly as well. There are plenty of Volt owners using no or very little gas, PIP owners can't say the same thing.
3. While driving dynamics and electrics/hybrids don't tend to go hand-in-hand, the Volt owing to the overall design and placement of the batteries is a much more balanced and composed vehicle. A Volt is far more sure-footed and capable of being pushed around then a PIP or even regular Prius.
As for the seating, the Volts rear seat isn't any more cramped then in pretty much any other compact car. It's not Prius spacious, but that has always been one of the Prius' strong suits.
Just wanted to use that as an example of a company with seemingly impeccable engineering accumen that has had issues with new products.
The basic is $32,000 and the advanced is $39,525. It's hard to go feature-to-feature do to the way the vehicles are bundled. A Volt optioned the same as an advanced PIP is around $41,105, hence why I said there is about a $2k difference similarly optioned. None of the prices above include destination; it is $760 for the PIP and $850 for the Volt.
It all has to do with how the engines interface. The Volt contains two electric motors/generators, one 111kW unit that is the primary drive unit, one 54kW secondary unit that can assist driving the vehicle or work as a generator and then the ICE. In a regular hybrid like the Prius and even the PIP, they don't have that primary electric motor/generator. They only have the secondary one that can either drive the wheels or work as a generator. The PIP has a larger version of this motor/generator then the regular Prius.
The way these three motors interact and the complex planetary gear set that controls them is what makes the Volt "next gen". A Prius is a VERY simple design compared to the Volt. These three motors are why the Volt engine can be run to do nothing but charge the batteries to allow the main electric motor to drive the car. The size of the main electric motor is also the reason the Volt can operate so normally as a pure electric.
They could. This is basically what Toyota did. I don't think the question has come up yet, but they can do it if they have to. Toyota was under obligation since they received R&D funding for the Prius from the Japanese government. This is something Toyota likes to deny, but the fact remains the Prius was invented by a collaboration of Japanese firms and the cost was offset by money from the Japanese government. The "strings" was that Toyota must license the tech to other companies who want it.
I'm not really sure what k:
Almost true... A PIP indeed has 2 electric motors, one 60kw and one 42hw, they work similar to the Volt, and Toyota does not HAVE to license the technology, they CAN if they CHOOSE to. Also a Volt CAN'T be optioned like a PIP, because most of the features in the advanced package aren't avaliable in the Volt, like dynamic cruise and the self parking feature, so the 32k PIP is closer to the 40+k Volt. The Volt is a compact??. The PIP is a midsize.
Almost true... A PIP indeed has 2 electric motors, one 60kw and one 42hw, they work similar to the Volt, and Toyota does not HAVE to license the technology, they CAN if they CHOOSE to. Also a Volt CAN'T be optioned like a PIP, because most of the features in the advanced package aren't avaliable in the Volt, like dynamic cruise and the self parking feature, so the 32k PIP is closer to the 40+k Volt. The Volt is a compact??. The PIP is a midsize.
You are correct on the PIP having two motors, forgive a lengthy response getting jumbled. The difference is that in the Volt, both electric motors can direct power to the wheels as needed. The PIP can only use its 60kW motor for driving the transaxle.
PIP:
Uses the 60kW motor to drive the wheels in EV mode. When the engine kicks on it directly drives the wheels while the transmission siphons some power to the 42kW motor that acts as a generator to recharge the batteries, that then provide power to the main motor for electric assist. All three motors cannot work together to provide power to the wheels. This is why the Prius needs to turn on the engine under heavy acceleration or while at highway speed. The main electric motor is too small to move the car under those conditions and the only additional power has to come from the ICE.
Volt:
The 111kW motor drives the car in EV mode. Under heavy acceleration the secondary 55kW motor can also provide additional power to the wheels. This is why you can floor a Volt in EV mode and not have the engine turn on. The ICE is used to either power the 55kW motor to charge the batteries while the 111kW motor drives the wheels or it can be used as a series hybrid to provide power to the wheels to assist the main motor while simultaneously powering the 55kW motor as a generator.
The above is why a Volt manages the run from 0-60 a full 3+ seconds faster then the PIP despite weighing over 600 pounds more. Which brings up an interesting point. Since you and I are probably the only people on here to have driven both, you can't honestly tell me with a straight face that the Volt doesn't hands down run circles around a PIP. It's faster and it handles much better. The Volt performs much like a standard passenger sedan, while the PIP still has a bit of 'golfcartitis'. I know performance isn't the point for these cars, but it is one of the bigger differences when driving them, outside of the fact the Volt's range is 3x that of the PIP, which IMO, makes up the cost difference.
As far as Toyota's licensing, you are incorrect that THEY CHOOSE to. THEY HAVE TO because of the grant funding that helped to defer the costs of developing the car. It is up to OTHER companies to CHOOSE to lease it from Toyota. Many have chosen not to such as Honda, GM, Chrysler and the Euro brands. If you were Toyota and have the "ace up your sleeve" that is their hybrid system would you license it out or just build as many as you could? You would obviously keep it for yourself, but they didn't because they didn't have a choice.
So, you're going to hang your hat on adaptive cruise and self-park? OK, so that's worth about $1,500 at the manufacturer level. I'll hang my hat on triple the all electric range which is the entire point of these cars anyway. FWIW, several sites have run out the calculation of the Volt vs. the PIP and it basically comes down to how much you drive. With gas at $3.50 a gallon, if you drive 70 miles or less a day the Volt is the cheaper car to operate with the sweet spot in terms of cost being right around 40-50 miles. If you go over 70 miles, then it's all PIP. However, if you are going over 70 miles, then the PIP is a horrible choice versus a regular Prius since it has such a gimped all electric range.
I DON'T think the Volt is a great solution for everyone if their concern is primarily about getting the cheapest cost of ownership to go from A to B. I like the Volt because of the tech in the car and what it can do. I honestly think that Volt style vehicles are going to be a large part of the driving future, but with "generators" running different kinds of fuels. With that said, the PIP is probably one of the worst total economic choices you can make since it can't even provide enough electric range for the average commuter. The PIP is the correct comparison to the Volt, but it simply performs far worse then any amount you would save on the purchase.
How long to you think it will take any of these to hit the used market with functioning batteries?
Not long at all. If you live in a CARB state and get a car originally sold in a CARB state the batteries and drive system are warrantied by the manufacturer for 10 years and 150k miles. In non-CARB states GM warranties the Volt's batteries for 8 years and 100k miles, which is the same coverage Toyota has on their hybrids.
Overall though, less than .02% or so of batteries have ever failed and there are examples out there with 400k+ miles on them being used in taxi fleets in NYC. There are also countless early gen Prius owners that have 200k+ on their original battery packs. Basically, it is nowhere near the issue people like to pretend it is.
Actually, I drove it about 88K miles before I threw it away. But my point was that my opinion of my Honda doesn't affect your opinion of your Honda. So why does your opinion of the Chevrolet Volt get to override the opinions of 2000 people who bought one just last month?
Read about the tests (from the above link):
In other words, one test w/o a fire and two tests where the battery eventually caught fire. Also note that these tests were unlike the same tests performed on gasoline-powered vehicles, where normally the fuel is drained after the crash.
The last paragraphs from the above link:
If you wrap your Honda around a tree are you planning on sitting around in the car?
No trees on my way to work, but I do drive a F-350 in places where there are a lot of trees.
Toyota ... received R&D funding for the Prius from the Japanese government. This is something Toyota likes to deny, but the fact remains the Prius was invented by a collaboration of Japanese firms and the cost was offset by money from the Japanese government.
This is exactly why I wanted to smack Sens. Larry Corker and Richard Shelby when they claimed that foreign automakers have a superior business model to domestic automakers. They whined about the "bailouts," and yet, the Japanese government subsidized Toyota's research and development, and their own states have subsidized the construction of plants for foreign automakers. There's your superior business model: subsidies and corporate welfare. The development is subsidized overseas, and the corporate ass-kissers in the South subsidize the assembly by building the plants for them. Foreign automakers don't play by our rules, yet Sens. Corker and Shelby either don't realize their hypocrisy, or don't care.
If they add the Prius C then I might but one.19Kminus 7500 is 11500. That is motorcycle range for a hybrid.Stil it the governamnt pickig winners and losers;whic i don't agree with in our economy with our deficit.
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