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If it's true that few francophones even speak fluent English as has been discussed in this thread, then how are their language traditions in peril? They live in an officially bilingual country, but in a province that is decidedly unilingual. So who is threatening their culture and how are they threatening it?
Personally, I see our monolithic neighbour to the south as being the main threat to Canadian culture of all stripes.
Ask it another way, why do you think Montreal / Quebec is so distinctly different from other areas of Canada? Why does the city have a distinctly North American/European mix to it? Is it because historically they spoke a different language and were segregated hundreds of years ago? Language separates cultures.
I often said the same to Quebecers and couldn't understand why they were so afraid of losing their culture. My argument was that in France and Spain and other European nations, no-one is scared of losing their culture. The answer came that Quebec does not have as many people as those European countries and the dynamic is different. Quebec is surrounded by English speaking areas.
TBH, the more English stuff I see in Montreal, the more I see big chains and Americanised stuff and quite frankly that sucks...I like the independence of the place.
Isn't it Vancouver where some people are finding it hard to get served in English now because everything is in Chinese? Very similar principle.
Last edited by qwertyjjj; 04-18-2013 at 12:41 PM..
Think about a major urban art or cultural festival. The cost of the festival itself may be, let's say $5 million for a big one that will attract tourists from all over, and let's imagine that half of that $5 million is provided by different levels of government. So how does that $2.5 million government subsidy go about generating at least $25 million? Well, it's quite simple when you think of all the money tourists and locals will spend in the local economy while attending the festival.
The 2011 Montreal International Jazz Festival cost $30 million and brought in over $100 million in revenue, even though the majority of the shows are free. It's the latest stat I could find. Each year, it just keeps getting bigger. I never miss it.
The 2011 Montreal International Jazz Festival cost $30 million and brought in over $100 million in revenue, even though the majority of the shows are free. It's the latest stat I could find. Each year, it just keeps getting bigger. I never miss it.
I would imagine that, of the $30 million spent on the festival, less than half of it came from government sources. And as far as generating over $100 million, that probably only represents money generated directly by the festival. If one considers all the indirect and incidental money spent by festival-goers plus the number of people who will tell their friends and family how great Montreal is and return for future vacations because of their positive experience, the revenue is probably more than double that figure.
Ask it another, why do you think Montreal / Quebec is so distinctly different from other areas of Canada?
Why does the city have a distinctly North American/European mix to it. Is it because historically they spoke a different language and were segregated hundreds of years ago?
I often said the same to Quebecers and couldn't understand why they were so afraid of losing their culture. My argument was that in France and Spain and other European nations, no-one is scared of losing their culture. The answer came that Quebec does not have as many people as those European countries and the dyanmic is different. Quebec is surrounded by English speaking areas.
TBH, the more English stuff I see in Montreal, the more I see big chains and Americanised stuff and quite frankly that sucks...I like the independence of the place.
Isn;t it Vancouver where some people are finding it hard to get served in English now because everything is in Chinese? Very similar principle.
I think it is because Montreal and Quebec in general developed along a different path. There was of course some overlap with the rest of Canada and the U.S., which explains why Quebec doesn't feel French like a place like St-Pierre et Miquelon does.
But it was still different enough to make the place feel quite different from other parts of Canada and the States.
I know the conversation has sort of drifted along to a different discussion but I thought I would chime in since the original strain of the thread is somewhat relevant to me. I lived in Montreal for a couple of years and went to Concordia, when I moved there I came with a lot of expectations that I had taken away from other people.
A few of the commonly repeated stereotypes that I had heard about French Canadians and about living in Quebec in general:
- People will not speak English to you and will be insulted if you don't know how to speak French
- The police and other officials are arrogant and will treat you especially badly if they know you aren't from the province
- All Quebecois are separatist and it's all they care about/talk about
Of course, in my two year experience, all of these things turned out to be completely untrue. I lived in Notre Dame De Grace in Montreal and traveled a lot around the city, almost every single person I encountered was perfectly fluent in English, and more than that, did not want to communicate in French. Here's what would happen. I would begin speaking terrible French, they could immediately detect that my French was terrible and obviously not my first language, they would switch to English and that was the end of it. No one wants to have a disjointed conversation and nobody ever behaved in a way that was arrogant or superior.
Speaking for Montreal only, you should keep in mind that it is a hugely ethnically diverse city. In my neighbourhood there were loads of people from all over the place, in particular Arabs, Persians, Chinese, Jamaicans, Russians, Spanish and more. There are all kinds of languages flying around. You can get on a bus and listen to four conversations in four different languages.
Interestingly, I have spent a week in France and the attitude was very different there. People were still totally civil to me but they were in favour of communicating in French even when it was obvious that it wasn't my first language (which was probably all the time). They seemed to appreciate the effort. Of course Quebec and France are two completely different cultures and both approaches make sense. Quebec is surrounded by English-speaking provinces and have a huge population of English speakers, so it would probably be a hassle having broken conversations with people just to say that you were communicating in French. France is of course the home of the French language and is not a multi-lingual country (as far as I know) and there are probably far fewer people speaking English.
That being said, there are plenty of people I met in Quebec who spoke barely a word of English or none at all. Like others have said, for some people it's just something you learn in school and then fall out of practice, the same as learning French in a primarily English-speaking province.
I only spent a couple days in Quebec city but my experience there was about the same as Montreal. I would think that they would be even more tolerant of English speakers because the tourism industry in Quebec city brings in so much money.
The only "bad" experiences I ever had with the language difference in Quebec was on one occasion I went into a big box women's clothing store which had signs posted stating that the employees would communicate only in French. It didn't exactly invite me to shop there but I can understand the logic, given that having to speak two languages to work in retail in your own province puts a lot of people at a disadvantage and could be considered an unfair requirement.
The second incident was a protest I encountered in downtown Montreal which had something to do with abolishing the law which allows English to be written as a secondary language on products/signage etc. It sticks out in my mind because the hostility made me uncomfortable and I felt personally attacked, given that something which directly attacks the English language in Quebec can be expected to be felt as an attack against English speakers in Quebec.
However, that incident was isolated. Quebec, in my mind, is the province of protest and there is a lot more going on. I went to Concordia during the year in which the protests against rising student tuition fees first started and participated in a few protests myself. I can only say that Montreal is a city in which every person seems to have a cause and every person participates and supports protesting for the rights of people who are in any way marginalized. Amongst those of us protesting the rising student fees were people rallying for women's day, trans and gay rights, and hare krishnas just out doing their hare krishna thing.
Just as a last note, I had brought up this idea that some people have that the police in Quebec are somehow arrogant or superior and will treat you badly as an English speaker, I never experienced this at all. Montreal had a pretty average police presence for a city of it's size and if anything was unusual about the police force it was that there were a lot of female police officers (compared to what I'm used to seeing in Newfoundland) and the cops were very laid back, many wearing shorts, riding bikes, seeming to just hang out, etc.
If you are from the U.S. or the rest of Canada you probably speak English and could honestly have little exposure to french in day to day life. If you are a native french speaker in Canada you have probably been taught english in grade school since most of the people in Canada speak it. If you haven't you have been constantly exposed to American movies and music, not to mention the Internet.
I find it convenient that you can go into a business in quebec not be able to find a person that speaks english. It would be somewhat believable if only one or two older people are working there but when its three or more people, especially younger people in a place within a hour of either the U.S. border or a English speaking part of Canada i think its BS.
They just get movies and TV shows with subtitles the same way so many people in the US speak Spanish and will not learn how to speak English because don't or they older and too hard to learn . I was shocked how many Mexicans in southern US states mostly southwest states like in California , Nevada , New Mexico and Texas all the Mexicans .
Yes people get by it is hard but they get by . Well books and magazines will be very hard to get in french or Spanish because so many books and magazines are in English.
If I was living in Quebec I would learn french and If I was living in California , Nevada , New Mexico and Texas I would learn Spanish because so many co workers and people on my street will speak Spanish.Not learning other languages you loose out making friends unless you want to move to red neck town and have only white friends or be all alone by you self and have little to no friends.
And even if they do partake in American culture (which they do to an appreciable degree), they have the option of doing so in French for everything except perhaps music.
At the moment 500 metres or so from where I sit the new 3D version of Jurassic Park is playing in French at my local cinema. As is the case for any other Hollywood blockbuster. Want to read 50 Shades of Gray in French? Pas de problème. Hunger Games? No worries. Harry Potter? Go for it - every single book. And they come out pretty quickly too.
Your kids wanna watch Hannah Montana, Shake it Up or The Wizards of Waverly Place? You're welcome to come to my living room any night of the week to view them... in French.
As for music, well there isn't much difference between someone today listening to Lady Gaga and not understanding the lyrics, as there is someone listening to La Traviata or Carmen, now is there?
Although this lack of English knowledge does sometimes lead to comical situations. Some years ago I attended a kids' talent show with seven-year-olds and a bunch of them did a dance routine to the song "Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy". I don't think anyone involved in preparing the show truly knew what the song meant.
The best time to learn any languages is when you are kid because when you get older it is harder to learn has you brain learns and processes information different when you get older.
That probably why your kids are better at English than you.
If I was living in Quebec I would learn french and If I was living in California , Nevada , New Mexico and Texas I would learn Spanish because so many co workers and people on my street will speak Spanish.Not learning other languages you loose out making friends unless you want to move to red neck town and have only white friends or be all alone by you self and have little to no friends.
Spanish in CA NV NM and TX is far from being equivalent to French in Quebec.
Yes people get by it is hard but they get by . Well books and magazines will be very hard to get in french or Spanish because so many books and magazines are in English.
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It is not really that hard to get books and magazines in French in Quebec. In fact, most of the stuff available here is in French.
That probably why your kids are better at English than you.
My kids are not better in English than me and I am not sure they ever will be.
I can't predict the future but at their age I already spoke English almost like a native speaker and they certainly do not. Of course I was not living in Quebec at the time.
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