Where would you rather live - in Canada or United States?

[VirtualAmerican]

Originally Posted by Average Fruit

VirtualAmerican, you're an atheist and want to live in The Southern United States? Good Luck with that.

Originally Posted by Northbound81

LMFAO at VirtualAmerican. I would LOVE for you to even just VISIT the U.S. South and tell people you are an atheist. Trust me, they will ask what church you go to, so when you respond "I'm an Atheist" you will see the look of shock and disbelief in their eyes. Outside of the odd liberal-leaning hippie college town (which wouldn't fit your political ideology anyway) the southern U.S. is extremely religious. All I have to say is good luck with that!

I think your ideology is more in line with places like Westchester County, NY or Marin County, CA... secular, educated worldview but republican purely for greed reasons (wealthy and want to keep more of it and screw the little guy). Of course those places have average home prices north of $1,000,000 so you'd never be able to afford it.

You know, it's not exactly like my religious beliefs (or lack thereof for that matter) are significant or of any importance to me. Due to my upbringing, religion is just not something I care for or about in any way. So I'm certainly not the kind of guy to walk around with t-shirts saying "I'm an Atheist" or stuff like that. If I do move south, I'm not going to go and introduce myself to my fellow Southerners saying "Hi, I'm your new neighbor and, oh, by the way, I'm an atheist." It's certainly not like that with me. And if they do insist on knowing what church I go to, I'll tell them that I don't go to church or that I don't believe in a god. If that really irks or shocks them to the point that they don't even want to speak to me, then I guess we're better off avoiding each other anyway. I don't need friends like that, I have enough of the same kind of crap to deal with here in Canada with closed-minded "progressive" friends/acquaintances/in-laws who can't accept that I don't think like they do (i.e. my girlfriend's ENTIRE family) even though I, on the other hand, adopt a very respectful attitude towards them and make every effort to avoid political discussions when they're around.

As for the other places you've suggested, I like Westchester County NY, have been there a few times, but there's still too much of a winter for my tastes and the New York City area is just too expensive to try to live in. As for Marin County CA, if I ever move to the "left coast" it'll be in either the Los Angeles or San Diego areas. I'm certainly not moving any closer to (hippieland) San Francisco than I need to.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I would caution against reading too much in the dark blue of Quebec.

The low irreligious figure in Quebec is a reflection of the fact that most Quebecers consider themselves to be "culturally Catholic". [...]
The vast majority of people in my age group (late 30s to early 40s) I know in Quebec would answer "Roman Catholic" to a question about their religious affiliation, but almost all of them are pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, pro-contraception, etc.

I, too, was surprised by the very dark shade of Québec's coloring on the map, but I have to agree with Acajack's explanation. Most Québecers would describe themselves as Roman Catholic but the vast majority never attends church and rarely (if ever) prays. I used to be among them, but at one point I realized that the whole religious masquerade was pointless and decided that, since I didn't really believe in a god, I was better off seeing myself as an atheist.

Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight

That's the problem of thinking of health care in that fashion, how much it costs for each user. Medical care just needs to be removed from the economy altogether, just like the public school system has, and have it so every person gets the same exact access to medical care, nationwide, regardless of ability to pay. I just think it's a fundamental right, just like public education. And why would 90% of Canadians support their health care system if it was so cruddy? Answer: it's not. Sure, it's got its flaws, just like everything else people do - but for the vast majority of people in that system, it's a far better deal than you'd get here., and the vast majority of Canadians know this.

Healthcare is not a fundamental right, and nor should it be. Life, on the other hand, is. You're confusing the two, like a lot of people who live under socialized healthcare systems. As for explaining why Canadians are supporting their healthcare system in such overwhelming numbers, it's mostly because they perceive that it's the one last thing setting them apart from America. They believe (rightly or wrongly, that's another debate entirely) that Canada's universal healthcare system is an integral part of their identity, so they desperately cling to it like there's no tomorrow. Not because it's great, mind you, but because they're afraid of any kind of change. This is also due to decades of public indoctrination and anti-American discourse proffered by Liberal/NDP politicians and by our media (CBC especially).

Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight

And what is the deal about wanting to move to Texas - good grief, I couldn't think of a worse place to live than that state.

Please explain why, and try to leave any condescending, distasteful or disrespectful comments/preconceptions against the fine people of Texas and their mentality/way-of-life out of it. Thank you.

Originally Posted by forwardman

Why is removing the industry from the Economy necessary? Do you not think that the Medical Research being conducted in the US is beneficial not only to its own country but those around the globe?
There is a reason why Canada ranks near the bottom when it comes to Medical Research spending per capita and the US at the top, you need not only the government involved in the Industry but the Private sector as well.

That's an excellent point, forwardman.

Originally Posted by Nick99

Am I the only one entertained by this guy's repeated postings of his legal trivia as reasons not to live in the States? I don't know whom you consort with, but pretty sure most of the people here defending the US could care less about your legal excerpts, nor run the risk of being affected by the obscure alleged legal deficiencies you cite.

No you're not. The fact that 99.9999999% of the U.S. population will never experience an isolated incident such as this (and thus, that his main argument in trying to convince Canadians not to move south is moot)appears to be irrelevant to Northbound81.

Originally Posted by Nick99

And ever hear of 9/11? Or any other terrorist attack on the US or other western nation? No need of scapegoating for any war on terror. Unless, of course, you think the government made all this up.

Yeah, I did point this out in an earlier response. (Post #383, page 39)

Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight

Not so bad considering you get fully paid medical care out of those taxes, as well as a safe, clean society in just about all of Canada. With numerous social programs that actually help the poor, Canada has turned out to be a right nice place to live If Canada's socialist ways are so bad, why is Canada enjoying a better economy and better government finances than the US? Heck, even the Canadian dollar is stronger than that of the poor USD. Hmmm...

*Sigh*. NorthStarDelight, we are literally killing ourselves over trying to explain to you that Canada isn't quite the unicorn-filled, utopian candyland you seem to believe it is. There is crime here, there is poverty, and you'd do well not to get catastrophically sick here and require "unorthodox" medical treatment/testing because you'll just have to hop back over the border and pay out-of-pocket to get it in time to save your life. You'll also find, if you visit rural Canadian HOSPITALS, that they don't even have a fifth of the equipment and resources sometimes available in American CLINICS (once again that's clinics, not hospitals) to treat you. The social programs and social benefits provided in some parts of Canada are mostly of the "wall-to-wall" type and are not specifically targeted towards a poorer strata of the population, which results in a global subsidy for the wealthy (in Québec: government daycare, cheap post-secondary education, universal prescription coverage). Providing welfare without asking any questions, unlimited food stamps or anything of the kind to able-bodied individuals should be temporary, not permanent, since extending those programs over a length of time ends up breeding a sense of entitlement and dependency. Don't get me wrong, Canada isn't a bad place to live, but the U.S. is a better option if you're in the least bit ambitious or self-reliant and that you don't spend every single day thinking to yourself "Gee, what else could the government do for me that it doesn't already do now?"

Finally, the reasons why Canada is faring better economically than the U.S. right this moment (please understand that this will only be a temporary slump in the U.S. as long as sound economic decisions are made soon) is because:

1. Canada has a stronger and more centralized banking system (for which the downside is less competition and higher fees);

2. Some genius (mostly Democratic) U.S. politicians and officials back in the early to mid-1990s thought that it would be a grand idea to facilitate home ownership for millions of families and individuals that simply couldn't afford it (Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac) and thus boost visible minority home ownership statistics just to give themselves a pat on the back - now that interest rates have risen, we get millions of foreclosures worsening what would've been a fairly normal recession, and the rest is history;

3. Canada isn't (AFAIK) printing money like there's no tomorrow to cover up expenses and interest on its national debt like the U.S. Federal Reserve is doing so its currency is doing better than the U.S. Dollar.

Those who are blaming Republicans, George W. Bush, and "deregulation" for the current economic situation have NO IDEA what they're talking about.

Originally Posted by MiD310

This is exactly why I am over it here. Maybe if our paychecks were taxed hard and goods and services were cheap, I could deal with it. But NO, Canada has to milk you from every angle! That is why people (people with common sense) are getting sick of this place!

Amen to that.

See guys, many of us Canadians are fed up with this crap. So, by all means, move here if you want (after all, our insatiable governments do need lots and lots more productive taxpayers to milk) but if you later find that you can't possibly maintain the kind of lifestyle you had in America, don't come and blame us. We warned you.

Originally Posted by Northbound81

The measure of a society is found in how they treat their weakest and most helpless citizens.
- Jimmy Carter

Most conservatives don't tend to hold a very favorable opinion of Jimmy Carter, so I would venture to say that quoting him in support of your arguments is not a very productive way of defending them.

Originally Posted by jambo101

Thanks for the info, its appears to be even better than i thought,the little guy gets a break while Mr Money gets to pay more

Mr. Money from $79,000 up? You can't seriously be for real.

Originally Posted by maclock

Yup, you're right; one is severely punished for being a success.

Don't forget:

• to add in your Ontario Health Premium;
• to account for your CPP, your EI, and your Workers Comp deductions; and
• to keep in mind the outrageous consumption taxes.

It's a bargoon, I tell ya! A real bargoon.

Yep. We punish success in this country, and we do a very good job at it. What's really fair is a flat-tax type imposition system. Everyone pays the same proportion of their revenue in taxes. So-called "progressive" income tax schemes are just plain evil in my opinion.

Originally Posted by forwardman

Its like people don't even take any pride in at least attempting to learn the truth anymore. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0&.v=147% of US Households paid NO Federal Income Taxes at all in 2010Households earning > $350k paid 73% of all Federal Income TaxesYes the middle and lower class in the US get no break at all.....The positive thing is that even with this great disparity in the US, you still have very generous tax breaks for all income brackets, unlike in Canada. On what planet is $138,000 a year considered rich? That is why I left Canada the moment I finished Grad School.

Thank you SO MUCH for pointing that out. The wealthy already pay the lion's share of America's taxes and liberal-minded Americans want them to pay even more.

Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight

The so-called "American Dream" is really one big puff of hot air, a pervasive meme perpetuated by the elite class in order to keep the proletariat in line, less they lose hope that they too, will someday be "rich" as well. Well, I just happen to think that the great middle class of the USA and Canada will realize how much they've been forked over by so-called "free trade" policies and government coddling of the Corporation and the Super-Rich, and elect someone like Huey Long to power, now there's a man who believed in what was right for this country...

Not the slightest bit of doubt subsists in my mind anymore. You have proven yourself to be a bona-fide Marxist. Come to Canada, you'll like it here. But it won't be perfect, because as I understand it, it'll be too capitalist for you still.

Originally Posted by maclock

And there's nothing wrong with the aspirational society cultivated in the States.

Quite the contrary! I have a little story which I believe explains the differences in prevalence for this kind of aspirational mentality in the U.S. versus in Canada, or in Québec.

You have three individuals. A Québecer, a Canadian, and an American. A beautiful high-end luxury car passes in the street in front of them. The Québecer looks at it, frowns, and says "I wonder how many honest workers that guy screwed to be able to drive this thing." The Canadian shrugs says something like "He's rich, he can afford this car, and I'm not. Sucks to be me, I guess."

But the American, on the other hand, takes a long, hard glance at the sublime machine offered before his eyes and lets out :

"Someday, I'm going to own a beautiful luxury car just like this guy."

How can you not admire this mentality? How can you not admire this kind of positive outlook on life, and on the future? How can you not admire this unflinching willingness to attain your goals no matter what, or achieve what you want?

This, to me, is what America is all about.

[maclock]

Originally Posted by atethepaint

maclock is certainly riled up on this thread!

Yes, I am, and it's mainly because long ago I tired of half-wits and entitlement-types trying to tell me that Canada is "the bomb" because they get to take more of my stuff. Of course, they never word it that way; they just go on and on about how everything is "free" in Canada. Free, my eye!

Originally Posted by atethepaint

Look, as a person who has lived in both countries, I can say with all genuine honesty that Americans are wonderful people. Friendly, helpful, somewhat overly-emotional but it's endearing. Most of them are smart and I see no real difference in the numbers of smart vs stupid people in either America or Canada.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by atethepaint

The American geography is spectacular. It's one of the few countries where you can enjoy every type of climate on earth, from desert to tundra. I find the Canadian geography spectacular too, but more because of the rugged, untouched beauty of it.

Again, agreed.

Originally Posted by atethepaint

In either country I can choose to make a living how I want, travel where I want, purchase what I want...basically, if I work hard in either place I can be successful.

I'm not as ready or as willing to agree with you here. The Canadian economy is considerably smaller, it's significantly more conservative and it's significantly less dynamic, so it tends to offer fewer, normally lower paid, opportunities to the bright and ambitious.

Originally Posted by atethepaint

Also, the government of Canada does take a lot more tax from your pay, but they don't necessarily rape you. A person earning $40,000 a year gross will still live a decent life. What that same person in America pays in health insurance is on par, or even higher in some cases, than what a Canadian pays in tax. I remember earning $30,500 in the US gross and after taxes and health insurance I was taking home $24,300 (or about 80%). In Canada, at $43,000 gross I took home $36,400 (or about 82%). Of course, that's my own story.

You are pummeled very quickly in Canada as you earn more, particularly when you break out of the kind of salary band you can expect to find yourself if you are a mid-level bureaucrat in a responsible role. At that income level, fine, but when you get in to the income brackets where your most valuable human resources are found, the Canadian system gouges you for far more. There's a reason that many skilled workers keep looking, and in some instances moving, south.

Originally Posted by atethepaint

In America (Seattle, to be exact...I was on an international fisheries research project for 1 year), I made many great friends but my car was broken into twice and one of my friends was mugged at knife-point. I've never had that happen in Canada (of course it does happen..just look at the newspapers).

Crime is random. The only two places where I have been the victim of pretty serious crime were cities where the numbers would suggest that I should have been deliriously safe, neither of them in the States. And I've spent years living in the States off and on in a city that suffers from comparatively high levels of crime, even by American standards.

And not meaning to discredit what you're saying in any way, shape or form, but property crime is normally higher in Canadian metro areas than it is in American metro areas of comparable size.

Just out of curiosity, did you grow up in Halifax? I know some people that have suffered some awful beatings in Halifax over the years.

Originally Posted by atethepaint

One thing I did notice in America is that the American dream has been hijacked by corporate interests and Americans see this very plainly and feel powerless to stop it. Society in America is under a lot of stress, and with no social safety net many people are on edge. With increasing costs and decreasing opportunities, crime and abuse are always going to increase. This isn't "leftist" propaganda, this is well-studied and well-documented fact.

It all depends on one's perspective.

Originally Posted by atethepaint

I love America. I think it's a wonderful country with amazing people. Unfortunately I have seen and experienced America falling from grace, and it is my hope that one day Americans can put their country back on the right course again. I also love Canada. It's a beautiful country also with amazing people, and I hope that Canada doesn't also lose its way as America continues to go astray. For both countries it is all up to the people, not the politicians or their corporate masters, to accomplish.

Canada has been adrift since the early 1960s. I hope that Harper manages to get it back on track.

[maclock]

VirtualAmerican, both within and without Quebec, Canada would do very well to have millions more people with your general attitude and understanding. It is my distinct pleasure to make your acquaintance.

[VirtualAmerican]

Originally Posted by maclock

VirtualAmerican, both within and without Quebec, Canada would do very well to have millions more people with your general attitude and understanding. It is my distinct pleasure to make your acquaintance.

Right back at ya, buddy!

Seriously, thank you heartily for your comment, and trust me, the pleasure is reciprocal. I guess people are right when they tell me I'm wise for my young age... *blushes*

But I also wish to extend the same kind of congratulatory comment to atethepaint for his/her last post, which I find overwhelmingly positive and constructive for our discussion. Even though I don't agree with everything he/she wrote, he/she has clearly focused on the things that we all have in common, rather than what divides us. Canada and the United States are both absolutely formidable nations inhabited by two incredible peoples, with many more characteristics/attributes uniting them together than setting them apart, even though we seem to enjoy picking on each other once in a while...

Suffice to say, I can only envy those who enjoy the incredible privilege of dual Canadian/American citizenship.

[Nick99]

Originally Posted by Northbound81

The measure of a society is found in how they treat their weakest and most helpless citizens.
- Jimmy Carter

lol You couldn't provide a weaker endorsement for your arguments if you had quoted Karl Marx.

Sounds like Herr Marx actually: 'from each according to his ability to each according to his needs'. No thank you.

I prefer 'from each according to his ability to himself and his family...and let the self-styled needy get off their a$$' (OK, I wouldn't put this on a bumper sticker and I won't get a following like Komrade Karl, but to hell with it).

As far as the tax argument, in Canada somebody pulling $70k is considered a richo. Heck, even the low brackets get sodomized to the tune of 20-25%. Not to mention hefty fuel taxes, 13% sales tax, no mortgage tax deductions like in the states, and it's clear which country has more opportunity for the capable and ambitious person.

Forced daycare is nannyism, plain and simple. This is not a good thing, people. Unless you are sheeple and are certain a stranger knows to raise your kids better than you.

Jambo decided to volunteer that his cushy lifetime job was unionized. Is that the only option for everybody? Or do you believe that was your only shot, and think it's the same for everybody? Is the company still around? I know plenty of union retirees (they're the majority) who, had they not dragged their feet on the job their entire careers, and not put in for disability every chance they got, their company will still be around and thriving. And the company owners who went through all the toil, creativity, and ambition to build a business often end up with very little for their efforts. Why do you think nobody wants to set up shop in Quebec? Not to mention the idiotic language laws.

[jambo101]

Originally Posted by Nick99

Jambo decided to volunteer that his cushy lifetime job was unionized..

Cushy? i wish, just well paying.. if there was a cushy job in that plant it must have been in the front office with all the pencil pushers.
As for the company? still there and thriving as would be evident by their new 50 million $ expansion,(Parmalat plant in Montreal west)

[Northbound81]

Forced daycare? Where do they have forced daycare? You are sounding more and more ridiculous.

[Cornerguy1]

Mod Note:

Enough, methinks.

This thread has degenerated to a slug/insult fest between a small number of members with very little in the way of useful discussion.

Time to agree to disagree and move on to other topics.