Vandals destroy dam, release 49 million gallons of water into Bay (Oakland: rent, tenants)

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by DetailSymbolizes

So-called "progressives".

No, they don't. That's nonsense.

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by SocSciProf

And, the three things that really happen are all PARTLY traceable to Prop 13.



Prop 13 -- the idea that time of purchase should determine tax rate -- necessarily constructs multiple distinct classes with opposed interests, the very definition of non-cohesion.



A locale that treats new people as cash cows while absolving long-standing residents of paying their fair share of community costs is unlikely to generate feelings of pride. The former feel used, the latter feel entitled. Hardly a recipe for civic pride.



Prop 13 starves jurisdictions of funds needed to: 1)penalize low-level crimes and delinquency, 2)quickly repair any damage so it does not encourage others, and, 3)sustain the facilities that give ALL youth something productive to do. The third leaves an unending trail of people available for mischief (growing pains), the second advertises the possibility to those who would not have thought of it otherwise, and the first fails to deter those who would think of it on their own.

Sad. Prop 13. Grandma (sorta) wins. Everyone (really) loses.

Professor.... you're not up to speed on Prop 13.

First... Prop 13 has zero to do with when you bought your home or length of ownership... totally irrelevant and couched to promote discord... Prop 13 is a tax based on Fair Market Value upon acquisition... again nothing to do with date purchase...

Now if this was true I would enjoy much lower taxes than my neighbors... I bought in 2003 and they bought a much nicer, larger and newer foreclosure home in 2009... my taxes are much higher because I paid more... and I bought 6 years before they did!

Prop 13 is a simple ballot initiative that sent a message to Sacramento and only part of it had to do with the high average tax rate approaching 3%... it also had to do with double digit tax increases and the State taking control of local public school monies derived from property tax...

One thing to pay higher taxes for exceptional local schools... quite another when the money leaves the district.

Another overlooked factoid is Prop 13 allows for tax increases with voter approval... and in my city the voters are very generous...

Nearly 40 years later, Prop 13 proves to be a convenient whipping boy for those looking to overcome shortcomings.

In the interest of full disclosure the California Teacher Union has not missed a chance to misrepresent Prop 13 to the public...

Twice in a recent two-year period the union collected signatures in an effort to qualify ballot measures to increase property taxes, although each time, for various reasons, they failed to submit the signatures they gathered.

Then CTA president, Barbara Kerr, was quoted as calling taxpayers who oppose new levies, “cheap.” To government-employee union leaders, taxpayers are a limitless source of money.

Union efforts are now under way to make higher sales tax rates permanent and to do away with Proposition 13’s requirement of a two-thirds vote of the Legislature to approve new or higher state taxes.

[NoMoreSnowForMe]

I'm sure if the people were only taxed properly, acts of terrorism or vandalism would completely cease.

[DetailSymbolizes]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

No, they don't. That's nonsense.

Yeah, they definitely do. Heard it with my own ears plenty of times; please don't tell me I didn't hear with my two f'n ears what I did in fact hear.

[majoun]

Originally Posted by Ultrarunner

Professor.... you're not up to speed on Prop 13.

First... Prop 13 has zero to do with when you bought your home or length of ownership... totally irrelevant and couched to promote discord... Prop 13 is a tax based on Fair Market Value upon acquisition... again nothing to do with date purchase...

Now if this was true I would enjoy much lower taxes than my neighbors... I bought in 2003 and they bought a much nicer, larger and newer foreclosure home in 2009... my taxes are much higher because I paid more... and I bought 6 years before they did!

Prop 13 is a simple ballot initiative that sent a message to Sacramento and only part of it had to do with the high average tax rate approaching 3%... it also had to do with double digit tax increases and the State taking control of local public school monies derived from property tax...

One thing to pay higher taxes for exceptional local schools... quite another when the money leaves the district.

Another overlooked factoid is Prop 13 allows for tax increases with voter approval... and in my city the voters are very generous...

Nearly 40 years later, Prop 13 proves to be a convenient whipping boy for those looking to overcome shortcomings.

In the interest of full disclosure the California Teacher Union has not missed a chance to misrepresent Prop 13 to the public...

Twice in a recent two-year period the union collected signatures in an effort to qualify ballot measures to increase property taxes, although each time, for various reasons, they failed to submit the signatures they gathered.

Then CTA president, Barbara Kerr, was quoted as calling taxpayers who oppose new levies, “cheap.” To government-employee union leaders, taxpayers are a limitless source of money.

Union efforts are now under way to make higher sales tax rates permanent and to do away with Proposition 13’s requirement of a two-thirds vote of the Legislature to approve new or higher state taxes.

So the Union is actually advocating the intent of Howard Jarvis. Jarvis wanted high sales taxes to fund government so property owners would be burdened with the weight of taxes, and so they could enjoy the benefits of speculation. Jarvis, a lobbyist for the apartment owners association of Los Angeles, got his wish, and the rest of us have suffered. Prop 13 is corporate welfare for the real estate industry.

I certainly do not support making higher tax rates permanent - I'd rather eliminate them and then jack up property taxes to make California more like such "liberal, profligate" states as Texas, New Hampshire, and Kansas.

[ccm123]

Just awful, at the worst time when water is badly needed.

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by majoun

So the Union is actually advocating the intent of Howard Jarvis. Jarvis wanted high sales taxes to fund government so property owners would be burdened with the weight of taxes, and so they could enjoy the benefits of speculation. Jarvis, a lobbyist for the apartment owners association of Los Angeles, got his wish, and the rest of us have suffered. Prop 13 is corporate welfare for the real estate industry.

I certainly do not support making higher tax rates permanent - I'd rather eliminate them and then jack up property taxes to make California more like such "liberal, profligate" states as Texas, New Hampshire, and Kansas.

Isn't it amazing that nearly 40 years since Prop 13 inception... the misinformation keeps coming?

Meet people all the time that profess they recently bought a home and don't have Prop 13 or that Prop 13 is only for retired people or that a person has to have owned their home for a long time to have Prop 13.

I work with a lot of intelligent people, Doctors, Nurses, etc... that don't have clue or have never read Prop 13 and they own property in California.

True to the form... vandals damage an inflatable dam used to divert water to recharge underground aquifers and the 10th post squarely puts the blame in Prop 13.

Food, Shelter, Clothing the essentials of life... we don't tax Food and narey a peep from the masses...

Prop 13 requires voter approval for new taxes and this is somehow bad?

[NewbiePoster]

Originally Posted by DetailSymbolizes

Yeah, they definitely do. Heard it with my own ears plenty of times; please don't tell me I didn't hear with my two f'n ears what I did in fact hear.

Chill, bro. It's all a matter of interpretation. Progressives don't teach kids to detest their society. You may not like what's taught in the schools, but nobody's teaching kids to detest their society. That's off-topic, anyway.

[majoun]

I meant to write "so property owners would not be burdened with the weight of taxes". Jarvis wanted to slash property taxes and jack up sales taxes. The opposite of what's good for California, but what was good for the folks who were paying him.

Corporate welfare for the real estate industry has resulted in the most unaffordable state in the US, with the biggest income disparity, with the least social cohesion, with schools that have declined the most, and with a landed aristocracy having arisen, as former Justice John Paul Stevens predicted.

Originally Posted by Ultrarunner

Isn't it amazing that nearly 40 years since Prop 13 inception... the misinformation keeps coming?

Meet people all the time that profess they recently bought a home and don't have Prop 13 or that Prop 13 is only for retired people or that a person has to have owned their home for a long time to have Prop 13.

I work with a lot of intelligent people, Doctors, Nurses, etc... that don't have clue or have never read Prop 13 and they own property in California.

True to the form... vandals damage an inflatable dam used to divert water to recharge underground aquifers and the 10th post squarely puts the blame in Prop 13.

Food, Shelter, Clothing the essentials of life... we don't tax Food and narey a peep from the masses...

Prop 13 requires voter approval for new taxes and this is somehow bad?

While 13 has damaged social cohesion and education in California, it's by no means the sole cause of what happened.

The ecoterrorist, Black Bloc subculture that can be found throughout the state but which is especially strong in the East Bay might have some connection to the attack on the dam. Dams are especially vilified in radical environmental circles. This subculture would probably exist if there never was a Prop 13 - even if education in California was still among the best in the nation, there would be a few individuals with those views.

[Ultrarunner]

I live in Oakland and it seems we have to avoid downtown every couple of weeks because of a protest...

The one a few weeks ago was particularly vicious... hundreds suffered loss... one car dealership had 45 new cars damaged or destroyed... storefronts busted, etc...

Oakland has tried to create a destination auto row and all it takes is a couple of incidents of anarchy and all the effort is for naught...

Thing is most and sometimes all the people arrested don't even live in Oakland...

Five years ago... property in my city was going begging in entire neighborhoods... homes that sold for 500k as late as 2007 were selling for 100k in 2009.

Real Estate does not always go up.

Important to remember the entire economic policy of the United States has been to prop up the economy with Real Estate as the key... never before has so much money been pumped in and at such low rates...

Most of my neighbors are retired and most have modest Social Security... they do live in nice homes they built back in the 60's...

Besides social security they depend on CD rates... which has been totally and thoroughly decimated... at one time it was hard to even find a 1% return... each and everyone is grateful for Prop 13... if they had to pay the taxes I do... most simply could not do it...