Wheelers Dealers (auto, drivers, head, turbo)

[Sikaranista]

Originally Posted by boomvang

And Jeremy has impeccable taste in cars, he loves the S2000!

Great car. So bummed that Honda dropped it

[Sayantsi]

I like Wheeler Dealers - yes the one guy is a bit of a blowhard, but that's cultural imo. The repairs seem pretty basic and standard with each car (suspension, exhaust, some other detail, sell), but at least the mechanics actually shows you how he's doing it and I like the budget-fix aspect of it.

[Merc63]

Originally Posted by GTOlover

yeah that is the car show to watch but there are some other decent one no one can replace jeremy clarkson dry-wit and brutal honesty.

Brutal honesty? God, I hope NO one here actually thinks you can get real automotive information from Top Gear. Scripted and often very fake. Seriously, if you're a fan of the show and think it's all just wonderful, you won't want to know some of the backstage antics and behind the scenes BS that goes into making it.

It's entertainment value only, but don't try to get any facts from it.

Jeremy's a worse blowhard than Mike on Wheeler Dealers.

As for the topic, yeah, I watch Wheeler Dealers. Can't stand Mike, but Edd's the man! I love the fact that he doesn't work out of a TV studio shop, but what looks like a real working facility. They aren't trying to make show cars, just decent drivers that yan owner can enjoy.

[G.Costanza]

Originally Posted by Merc63

Brutal honesty? God, I hope NO one here actually thinks you can get real automotive information from Top Gear. Scripted and often very fake. Seriously, if you're a fan of the show and think it's all just wonderful, you won't want to know some of the backstage antics and behind the scenes BS that goes into making it.

It's entertainment value only, but don't try to get any facts from it.

Jeremy's a worse blowhard than Mike on Wheeler Dealers.

As for the topic, yeah, I watch Wheeler Dealers. Can't stand Mike, but Edd's the man! I love the fact that he doesn't work out of a TV studio shop, but what looks like a real working facility. They aren't trying to make show cars, just decent drivers that yan owner can enjoy.

Yup, love TG as entertainment, but don't fool yourself that it's anything more. At least JC knows humor and as co-creator (?) of the current format knows what works on TV. RH and JM seem to have little role other than to cradle his ego by being the butt of endless jokes. Don't get me wrong, I watch it whenever possible and it's often very funny, but at times I really miss the old format of TG that was much more informative.

As for Wheeler Dealers, the criticism that Edd China is a "rattle can mechanic" misses the point of the show entirely The whole idea of the show is to show a somewhat DIY-friendly restoration on a limited budget, often just 2,000 GBP of which a large chunk will go to necessary mechanical repairs. That doesn't leave much for all the cosmetic stuff. When you're ultimately selling a car for, say, 3K GBP there's no point in spending 200 on each wheel to have it professionally refinished. Edd's whole essence is to show you can achieve at a fraction of pro restoration pricing.

And there would be no show either if everything was simply professionally redone at a specialist shop. So Edd will show the viewers what you can do on a limited budget and some of your own labor. If you are looking for a show on professional concourse-worthy restorations by specialists in each area, this is not it.

To harp about their limited profits is also to miss the point entirely. The show wasn't created to make profits on the resale of cars, any more than other shows profit on car or home makeovers. It just goes to show that the limited amounts spent on each resto/makeover wouldn't be a complete waste for an owner at home and actually add some value.

[Merc63]

Completely agree with all of that post, GC.

[getmeoutofhere]

Originally Posted by Merc63

Brutal honesty? God, I hope NO one here actually thinks you can get real automotive information from Top Gear. Scripted and often very fake. Seriously, if you're a fan of the show and think it's all just wonderful, you won't want to know some of the backstage antics and behind the scenes BS that goes into making it.

Uh, incorrect. It's unscripted and their performance data is top-notch.

[Merc63]

Originally Posted by getmeoutofhere

Uh, incorrect. It's unscripted and their performance data is top-notch.

hahahaha! Oh, you believe that?

Sorry, but it's SO scripted. Remember the Hawk Stratos replica that was featured on one episode? Here's a little story from one of the guys involved:

As you know I don't often make comments on the forum but I think that the facts as I see them need to be aired. I was there at the top gear studio all day and saw everything outside the studio first hand. Because of my personal view of the programme I refused the offer of participating inside the studio.I was informed after the recording of what was said and shown by my friends from Noble Motorsport who were also there on the day.

We know that Nico volunteered his car at very short notice to the people at Top Gear who has asked for an Alitalia. Nico made it abundantly clear in his many emails to them that the car had been standing and had been rallied over the last few years and was a little 'distressed'. They arranged transportation for the car to be collected from Edinburgh and delivered to the studios where it was filmed with sticking brakes and showing the Stig getting out of the car after it had broken down. But they omitted to report that they had blown the engine. The Stig then leant on the side window and it crashed down, then the wiper blade dropped off. The Stig walked away. Then they transported the car back to Nico in Edinburgh declaring only trouble with the brakes and still not admitting to an engine problem and a broken door where they had pushed it so far back it had broken the check strap and cracked the fibre glass edge!

This is the point where I came in. I was asked by Nico if I could collect the car from him and put a new engine in which the BBC would pay for (after liaising with the BBC they agreed to pay for a new engine and my transportation from Edinburgh to Dunsfold via my workshop). Due to the short timeframe in which I had to work on the car I had to drop everything to collect the car from Edinburgh. I collected and fitted the engine and gearbox kindly donated by Ken from his Rothmans car. In addition Nico also wanted ugrades to the gearbox by fitting a 2 litre diff and an Alfa LSD - I duly obliged. Nico then arranged with Talon to put extra spotlights on the front and fill the empty lamp pod with working spotlights and all associated wiring and respray of stonechips. A new set of wheels was supplied by them with slick racing tyres in an effort to give the car a quick time. On investigating the problem with the brakes - I identified this as a sticky slider and not wanting to risk any further problems, new callipers and pads (the old pads were glazed and overheated to such an extent that they were breaking up) were put on the front and a new master cylinder fitted. I had problems bleeding the brakes and could't understand why I wasn't getting a pedal.Again, time was running out and I had to take the car to Talon for them to fit the front end and wire in the new spotlights. While I was there we all three tried to sort out the prblems with the brake - to no avail. The next day after a sleepless night I took out the pedal assembly and discovered that it was bent out of line and not giving any stroke on the pedal. After re-jigging everything the pedal was restored and we had good working brakes. A late night that night!!
Early start next morning to load the car and all tools for a shake down test at Bruntingthorpe. After a couple of slow bedding-in laps, checking temps and levels, etc (this was the first time that the car had run). The speed was gradually built up and everything seemed OK. Owing to Nico's time constraints no adjustments were made to the suspension in any way - setting of shocks, tyre pressures, tracking etc. My concerns had already been raised regarding the fitting of the secondhand shocks from his green car. Later I put this issue in writing but time was spent on getting the car to look spectacular - which it did!

Back at the workshop more work was carried out as instructed to further enhance the appearance of the car by painting in the stonechips and polishing etc. I must admit the car did look brand new.

On Wednesday, the day of filming, I had to be at the studios by 8am which meant leaving home at 4.30am.

After off loading the car on its slick tyres I went through the start procedure with them and handed over the keys. I then went to park up my truck and trailer away from the studio but with a good vantage point of the test track. At 9am the editor came to ask me if I wouldn't mind fitting the 2nd set of wet weather tyres as it was pouring with rain and he said that they wouldn't get far on the slicks - I duly obliged. Then this week's Stig driver came round(Andy something, I think) and got in the car, started the engine revving it's nuts off making it bounce off the rev limiter. To which he remarked "I thought I was pressing the brake" - I explained to him that the brake is the next one along and the clutch the next one after that. Off he shot.

The car flashed down the track and to me it sounded as though it was firing on 5 cylinders but it was going so fast and it was raining so hard it was difficult to tell.

For the next hour and a half I watched through binoculars as they filmed the supposed one power lap. In fact he drives two or three laps and then the camera team move to the next corner and he does two or three more laps and so on. In all he must have done 30+ laps. Then he did the supposed spinning out of control on the power lap. I must admit though, he is a very good driver in the way that he provoked and recovered the spins - or maybe they were just his practice ones. From this you can see how contrived it all was.

My view is that from the outset this was the direction that the programme was going to take. Even if the car had performed spectacularly they would have still slated it.

Nico went in to the studio filming and immediately expressed his anger and concern over the way everything had been handled and portrayed. Including Clarksons comments - a great looking car but a crap build (or words to that effect).

My emails and telephone conversations with the BBC were met with 'media talk' and I was told hat they were going to show the footage and nothing was going to change. Legal action by Gerry and Nico to remove all footage of the car and all references to it have just been sidestepped by the BBC.
What have we come away with? Nico has come away with hurt pride. Gerry has had his most excellent product criticized and future worldwide sales jeopordised and I, although not mentioned by name, everyone knows that I built the car originally and they will associate it's failings with me. However, I have to carry out work as per my customers' instructions over and above my personal preferences.

The script for the show was written even before they had the car and the issue is with the people who design the programme and not the three stooges who front it. It just goes to show that these are no different to any other treacherous bastards in the media. Both Gerry and I are absolutely devastated about the programme and fear the negative knock on effect on our businesses. I am personally well known throughout the industry - as is Gerry.

Chris

And here's a quote from Guy Croft, the author of THE book on Fiat/Lancia engine building and the foremost authority on Fiats and Lancias 9and derivatives) in the world:

Hullo Chris

I watched the 'show' last night and just joined to say this.

I'm really sorry to hear you had such a miserable experience working with Top Gear, I can tell you mine with the Lotus Lada was an unrewarding affair too and if the phone rang again and it was Top Gear I'd tell them to F off.. Hammond bore the pants off everyone talking about his dog and his girlfriend and told me I was one of the most cynical people he'd ever met and never spoke to me again all day! Not so much as a 'thank you'! And I was the one who funded and build the engine and countess other things to make the show workable incl almost living at Hethel for a week at my own expense to help Lotus - and they sure needed help because no-one there could remember how to build up a car like that. I was left with the over-riding impression that TG were completely selfish and anyone with half_a_brain can see Clarkson can be really thoughtless and irresponsible on the show on TV, heaven knows how many cars and careers he must have 'buried' with his blabbermouth attitude. To be honest I think he runs that show mainly so he can meet 'celebs' to invite for dinner.

The gist of the post was that the car had been checked out by multiple volunteers, it made it around the track thirty times without incident, and on the filmed lap the Stig was instructed to spin out twice and then recover it, according to the script. It didn't matter how well the car performed; the script dictated that the car would be portrayed as a badly-built, unmanageable bucket, and that's what Jeremy and Co. stuck with. Imagine had you built a car that worked, that was your businesses bread and butter, and it was portrayed that badly due a pre-written script? Would you simply say 'well any publicity is good publicity? *I* wouldn't.

And come on, the caravan balloon thing was VERY obviously scripted (one does not disturb air traffic like that without making major news, especially not if the name is James May).

So, as for the show, where do these pieces take us? Which words the guys speak out am I to believe, and which shouldn't I believe? Is it all just entertainment? Am I to choose wildly which bit is a true fact, and which bit is just imaginary? They give so much information on any car they review, what do I end up with if its all worthless? Yeah, a nice hour of HD car entertainment at its finest, but a hollow stage behind a curtain of "We tell you what a car is really like!" Say what you will about the entertainment quality of the show, and be an apologist for everything the show does, but it is possible to make a solidly entertaining show without sacrificing all your integrity in the process.

As was said on the Top Gear Forum:

- the problem is not so much that the TG guys thrashed and thus damaged the car. That is to be expected in a proper car review. However,
JC thrashed the car, and the Stig blew the engine. So the builder took it back to repair it as good as possible in the given time frame. Then, TG did a number of laps including deliberate spins prove a point.

- after this, there is no way left to determine whether the TG guys are factual or not in any situation. Problem is that they often pretend (and sometimes explicitly say) to be factual, which now also has to be questioned. That effectively renders TG a pure entertainment show. No problem there, they just should stop pretending that they are factual at all then.

- proving your point is an essential part of journalism. But if a journalist has any sense of honor left, he should put a limit to the amount he wants to bend the facts to make the goal.

Now, the guy who owns/built the Stratos was obviously upset and over dramatized the issue. But the fact is that TG scripted the segment, and forced the car to live up to the script with faked spins and intentionally broken bits.

[getmeoutofhere]

Right, because people on an Internet forum are obviously the most reliable source of information. And, they never lie about anything.

Series 14: where we’re at « Transmission – BBC Top Gear

I’d like to offer my thoughts on a few other points. Firstly, this notion that everything’s scripted. It isn’t. We went to South America with one sheet of A4, Romania with 2 or 3 sheets about the car particulars, Ice Racing the same. Yes we do set a few things up – You won’t find Careless Air in the phone book, and obviously we rang Norwich Airport before James’s caravan airship pitched up, but no, for the millionth time, we don’t pre-arrange races or challenges or petrol stations in Alabama.

[G.Costanza]

I'm not getting into the scripted debate (although the quote above cleverly denies "everything is scripted" which is quite different from nothing being scripted, i.e. leaves the possibility of some things being scripted), but the notion from apparent TG fanboys that their performance data being top-notch is frankly ludicrous.

The one objective, performance metric from each episode is the lap of the TG track by "The Stig" and it's a joke by real automotive standards:

1. It's measured from a standing start. I shouldn't even have to explain how ridiculous that is.

2. Drivers (or changes of such) are never recorded (or at least published); the driver behind the Stig persona has changed over the years and is reported to be multiple people across each season.

3. The track itself is a joke, with no penalty for going off or cutting corners; try doing that at the N'ring. Both the stars in the reasonably priced cars and The Stig in performance cars can be seen barely keeping it on the track as they take the last corner and cross the finish line immediately afterwards. No genuine track I know has a finish line barely yards after a corner. It allows you to attack that corner faster than normally possible because there is no penalty for going wide after it (if the clock has stopped, who cares if you're in the gravel - or grass in TG's case - by then).

[rosecitywanderer]

I think you're missing the point of Top Gear. It's not supposed to be factually accurate but rather, it's supposed to be fun and in some cases, childish. It achieves that wonderfully and I love the show for it.