Falcons Stadium Funding Update (Arlington, Ranger: condos, townhomes, school)

[joey86]

Church may give way to new stadium | 11alive.com

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by joey86

Church may give way to new stadium | 11alive.com

Good. That has been a real concern of mine.

[testa50]

Originally Posted by toll_booth

Ah, right. Twenty is the new 70, or something like that. Thank god no city leader has been dumb enough to seriously consider replacing the Ted.

Why is it that dumb of an idea? Looking at this with a blank slate, the argument for replacing Turner is far more obvious than the argument for replacing the Dome.

- They're both roughly the same age.
- Turner is in a poor location that requires MARTA to run a shuttle at a cost of roughly $1 MM/year. The Dome doesn't.
- There are perpetual discussions about running mass transit down to Turner, which would cost probably in the hundreds of millions--a significant fraction of the cost of a new stadium.
- New baseball stadiums are much cheaper than new football stadiums--roughly half the cost.
- Baseball stadiums are used more days per year than football stadiums, and thus benefit walkable areas a lot more.
- Turner's location in a depressed residential neighborhood seems like a vicious cycle. The stadium seems to make the neighborhood worse, while the stadium also gets trashed pretty often by outsiders/the media for being in a rough neighborhood. Perhaps the vicious cycle should be broken.

But of course the overriding consideration is revenue split, which is the reason the Dome is being replaced and not Turner Field. The facilities seem pretty comparable in terms of functionality and appearance (they're both pretty nice, if unexciting, places to watch a game). I'd give the Dome a substantial edge in fan experience based on location and stuff, while inside the stadiums they are pretty comparable.

One thing that made me less pro-Turner was going to a Diamondbacks game and seeing how much nicer their stadium location/fan experience was. Night and day better than Atlanta. It's one thing to go to Boston and see how much better they have it, but Phoenix? We destroy that city in almost every urban metric, but they manage to have a way-better integrated baseball stadium than we do. Pretty disheartening for them to beat us by so much.

I'm aware of plans to redevelop the area around Turner, btw. I just don't know how successful that's going to be, and it sounds like it's going to cost a bomb to build the mass transit down there.

[MattCW]

While I don't support a new publicly-funded Falcons stadium at all at this juncture. I will say that if it is relocated to the south site, it might actually be time to start thinking about moving Turner Field to the present site of the Dome. The reason is three-fold. 1. It puts our baseball stadium on MARTA rail without a multi-million dollar extension and simplifies the I-20 East BRT component a little bit. 2. It pulls Turner Field out of a "bad neighborhood" possibly opening up the land and parking lot to redevelopment. 3. It consolidates Atlanta's sports culture to one area which is more attractive to businesses that would like to be near sports areas and the clientele they tend to attract.

[testa50]

Originally Posted by MattCW

While I don't support a new publicly-funded Falcons stadium at all at this juncture. I will say that if it is relocated to the south site, it might actually be time to start thinking about moving Turner Field to the present site of the Dome. The reason is three-fold. 1. It puts our baseball stadium on MARTA rail without a multi-million dollar extension and simplifies the I-20 East BRT component a little bit. 2. It pulls Turner Field out of a "bad neighborhood" possibly opening up the land and parking lot to redevelopment. 3. It consolidates Atlanta's sports culture to one area which is more attractive to businesses that would like to be near sports areas and the clientele they tend to attract.

Pretty much my thought process. If you choose the north site, then I have a lot less interest in relocating Turner. But if you choose the south site, we have an opportunity to have a truly world-class sports district that will be active like 50% of the days of the year--especially if Hockey and/or MLS would come to town. I'm not sure any other city could match that.

The boon to downtown would be tremendous.

And, for the record, I'm talking about starting the relocation process in roughly 2020 and not actually relocating until about 2025. At the soonest. But we should always be master planning and thinking about the future. We have a big opportunity here.

[arjay57]

Good points, Matt and Testa.

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by testa50

Why is it that dumb of an idea? Looking at this with a blank slate, the argument for replacing Turner is far more obvious than the argument for replacing the Dome.

- They're both roughly the same age.
- Turner is in a poor location that requires MARTA to run a shuttle at a cost of roughly $1 MM/year. The Dome doesn't.
- There are perpetual discussions about running mass transit down to Turner, which would cost probably in the hundreds of millions--a significant fraction of the cost of a new stadium.
- New baseball stadiums are much cheaper than new football stadiums--roughly half the cost.
- Baseball stadiums are used more days per year than football stadiums, and thus benefit walkable areas a lot more.
- Turner's location in a depressed residential neighborhood seems like a vicious cycle. The stadium seems to make the neighborhood worse, while the stadium also gets trashed pretty often by outsiders/the media for being in a rough neighborhood. Perhaps the vicious cycle should be broken.

But of course the overriding consideration is revenue split, which is the reason the Dome is being replaced and not Turner Field. The facilities seem pretty comparable in terms of functionality and appearance (they're both pretty nice, if unexciting, places to watch a game). I'd give the Dome a substantial edge in fan experience based on location and stuff, while inside the stadiums they are pretty comparable.

One thing that made me less pro-Turner was going to a Diamondbacks game and seeing how much nicer their stadium location/fan experience was. Night and day better than Atlanta. It's one thing to go to Boston and see how much better they have it, but Phoenix? We destroy that city in almost every urban metric, but they manage to have a way-better integrated baseball stadium than we do. Pretty disheartening for them to beat us by so much.

I'm aware of plans to redevelop the area around Turner, btw. I just don't know how successful that's going to be, and it sounds like it's going to cost a bomb to build the mass transit down there.

Thing is, just cause it's not in a perfect location shouldn't be a reason to get rid of it. It's a fine ballpark, and as nostalgic as Fulton County Stadium was, the Ted is much better. Any improvements could be taken care of via modest renovations.

[therealpattman]

I think it would be huge for the city to have all the major sporting venues within walking distance of each other and MARTA.

[cwkimbro]

Ok a few points to ponder

Firstly, I simply like Turner field. I like the way it looks. I like the fact it use to be the Olympic Stadium. It looks like a classic American baseball park. It is the kind of place I want to have around when I'm old and I can tell me grandchildren... I watched the Olympics there.

but beyond that.

Baseball events tend to make less money (per event), but there are many many many more. This includes lots of games during business hours, near rush hour, during convention events, etc...

The baseball Stadium won't fit well near the GWCC, the merchandise mart, the central core of offices, etc... There are too many times where events would overlap and things just won't work well in general. It might take more time for Downtown to get its luster back, but I'd like to think with further improvements (ie. commuter rail, and the new mult-modal station) office development will come back. I don't want to bring in more localized congestion on downtown streets and freeway exits to compete with those goals...even with those transit improvements things would be horribly more congested with downtown offices + multiple events.

There needs to be some separation from traffic. The main reason I like the football stadium near GWCC is that there are few football games, but the GWCC uses the enclosed stadium for conventions and events... its not just a football stadium. It is a key piece to the needs of larger conventions that bring in the most people.

As far as the neighborhood goes... It is getting better, especially to the north near Summer Hill. Alot of GSU students are moving in. The only thing really bringing the neighborhood down is the city held on to those parking lots for the stadium. I think the best thing to do is use the stadium as a catalyst for redevelopment of the parking lots and that will go a long ways to make the neighborhoods more desirable in the long run. I don't think the stadium pulls those neighborhoods down, but perhaps the huge mass of asphalt and lack of cohesiveness does.

Also, the stadium does have an iconic view of the city.

Think about many of America's Iconic baseball stadiums... Fenway Park, Wrigley Field, etc.. They aren't right downtown, but they aren't incredibly far. They are far enough way not to affect them as much, but they are in the core of some of the cities urban neighborhoods.

... and I mean ... its within a mile of downtown as-is. Just bring downtown to it, not it to downtown. Baseball is a great way to feed pubs, bars, and grill/restaurants perfect for a vibrant dense, urban residential community that wants those amenities too. It is less than a mile to a major university and less than a mile to a heavy rail station. It isn't a bad location.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

... and I mean ... its within a mile of downtown as-is. Just bring downtown to it, not it to downtown. Baseball is a great way to feed pubs, bars, and grill/restaurants perfect for a vibrant dense, urban residential community that wants those amenities too. It is less than a mile to a major university and less than a mile to a heavy rail station. It isn't a bad location.

Yes, but bear in mind those conditions have been in place for 40 or 50 years. For most of that time the state, federal, county and COA governments have been hammering away at revitalizing downtown, as has the business community. Yet the result speaks for itself. Maybe it is time to start thinking about moving the baseball stadium closer to the state's complex at the GWCC and the new football stadium.