Why are Fulton County Schools not having the same problems as DeKalb County Schools? (Atlanta: mortgage, house)

[RoslynHolcomb]

That's an interesting question FromGA. I know that during the integration battles the state of Alabama amended the Constitution so that the state is not responsible for education. Don't know if he've changed that. Interesting to know that Georgia didn't do that.

[cwkimbro]

I went out of town for the week, so I haven't had time to enter the discussion.... but I have to admit I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned.

Think about what the aggregate population of Fulton County is once you take away the parts that attend city schools (Atlanta). That population is extremely affluent and wealthy. It is a very upper middle class area.

Don't get me wrong... Dekalb has its nice and affluent areas too, but it also has a much larger population that isn't.

I know South Fulton isn't considered affluent, but it is a very small part of the population.

the 2010 census had Fulton County at 920,000 (Yes, there is some controversy on potential under counts, but most of that was centered on under counts in Atlanta city).

subtract Atlanta's population and you get 500,000 people. If you add the population of Sandy Springs, Mountain Park, Milton, Roswell, Johns Creek, and Alpharetta together you get roughly 350,000 people.

This only leaves about 150,000 in S. Fulton (+ adding back however many people live in Atlanta city (Dekalb County).

The South Fulton cities have about 93,000 people, but there is much more unincorporated land.

I'm not surprised at all... the affluence brings in more money and a more stable pool of students whose parents can invest more resources in their child's education.

[chalvey]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

I went out of town for the week, so I haven't had time to enter the discussion.... but I have to admit I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned.

Think about what the aggregate population of Fulton County is once you take away the parts that attend city schools (Atlanta). That population is extremely affluent and wealthy. It is a very upper middle class area.

Don't get me wrong... Dekalb has its nice and affluent areas too, but it also has a much larger population that isn't.

I know South Fulton isn't considered affluent, but it is a very small part of the population.

the 2010 census had Fulton County at 920,000 (Yes, there is some controversy on potential under counts, but most of that was centered on under counts in Atlanta city).

subtract Atlanta's population and you get 500,000 people. If you add the population of Sandy Springs, Mountain Park, Milton, Roswell, Johns Creek, and Alpharetta together you get roughly 350,000 people.

This only leaves about 150,000 in S. Fulton (+ adding back however many people live in Atlanta city (Dekalb County).

The South Fulton cities have about 93,000 people, but there is much more unincorporated land.

I'm not surprised at all... the affluence brings in more money and a more stable pool of students whose parents can invest more resources in their child's education.

Also, many kids in the affluent parts of Dekalb stop using public schools come middle and high school. A vast majority of my friends, myself included, went to private school. I do not want to start a debate, but affluent areas do tend to have better schools. When these kids leave the school system it drags down the system, since children from economically deprived areas make up a larger percent of the total student population.

[lastminutemom]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

I went out of town for the week, so I haven't had time to enter the discussion.... but I have to admit I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned.

Think about what the aggregate population of Fulton County is once you take away the parts that attend city schools (Atlanta). That population is extremely affluent and wealthy. It is a very upper middle class area.

Don't get me wrong... Dekalb has its nice and affluent areas too, but it also has a much larger population that isn't.

I know South Fulton isn't considered affluent, but it is a very small part of the population.

the 2010 census had Fulton County at 920,000 (Yes, there is some controversy on potential under counts, but most of that was centered on under counts in Atlanta city).

subtract Atlanta's population and you get 500,000 people. If you add the population of Sandy Springs, Mountain Park, Milton, Roswell, Johns Creek, and Alpharetta together you get roughly 350,000 people.

This only leaves about 150,000 in S. Fulton (+ adding back however many people live in Atlanta city (Dekalb County).

The South Fulton cities have about 93,000 people, but there is much more unincorporated land.

I'm not surprised at all... the affluence brings in more money and a more stable pool of students whose parents can invest more resources in their child's education.

Very well said -- something I couldn't find the right words for. The reality is that those N. Fulton parents have demanded a certain level of education and quality of product delivery. That isn't happening from the majority of parents in DeKalb and thus we get what we get.

If you live in DeKalb and you have never seen a DeKalb board meeting, shame on you. The quality of our board members is horrific. It is a shame the children suffer because of the actions of the citizens, but they do.

[atlgrl1969]

Originally Posted by PKCorey

It is required by the GA Constitution.

Exactly!

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

the affluence brings in more money and a more stable pool of students whose parents can invest more resources in their child's education.

However, affluence doesn't affect funding for the schools. South Fulton schools are funded at the same level as North Fulton Schools, and city of Atlanta and DeKalb County schools get considerably more money than either.

[lastminutemom]

Originally Posted by arjay57

However, affluence doesn't affect funding for the schools. South Fulton schools are funded at the same level as North Fulton Schools, and city of Atlanta and DeKalb County schools get considerably more money than either.

Fulton outspends DeKalb. It has a far stronger tax base (even excluding Atlanta). Atlanta spends the most per student in the southeast, I think. (That may not be accurate now, but it was before the recession.)

Fulton spends about 500 more per student. Fulton most likely is spending its money more wisely. Remember DeKalb has a school board that is beyond dysfunctional and a very heavy central office.

Remember Atlanta is excluded from Fulton's schools because they have their own system. It is my understanding that Fulton's poor aren't as poor as DeKalb's poor. In addition, DeKalb's free and reduced lunch rate is 75 percent while Fultons is 44 percent.

I expect that, once things start moving upward in the housing market, Fulton County will bounce back much faster than DeKalb.

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by arjay57

However, affluence doesn't affect funding for the schools. South Fulton schools are funded at the same level as North Fulton Schools, and city of Atlanta and DeKalb County schools get considerably more money than either.

I think affluence does affect funding... but you're right too. It doesn't affect it on a block by block or intra-county region level, but it does affect it on a county to county level.

The difference in school system funding is usually caused by the differences in property taxes. Affluent areas have more expensive property values and a much larger tax digest (granted this is always taken at a whole school district level).

Fulton (non-Atlanta city):
pop: aprox. 500,000
student enrollment: 96,600
General Operations Budget: $819,517,000
Estimated cost per student: $8,700*


Dekalb:
Pop:691,100
Student enrollment: 96,500
General Operations Budget: $774,600
Estimated per pupil expenditure: $7,800*

(Estimates from each county's budget; not calculated from above amounts)

As was mentioned it is is a popular trend for some Dekalb parents to take their kids out as they get older. You can imagine how this would be worse as more people in Dekalb's larger population kept more kids in the school system.

One issue to spot out here... part of the expenses are also how the money is spent. I know this is a touchy issue for many, but one of Dekalb's problems is relatively small school sizes and operating schools under capacity. The problem is by a slight amount more of the money is going towards school maintenance and replication of resources (library materials for example), as opposed to teachers and individual student materials. This is why Dekalb (agree with it or not) is looking at restructuring their school enrollments.

Admittedly there were 2 years in the past where this gap was closed ('09 and '10, I believe to outside funding, but for the years before and after this gap remains).

Fulton County also has more room to increase it's millage rate (if it were needed). Dekalb's is about 18.9 and Fulton's is about 22.9.

Now some of the state funding (some caused by federal spending equations) actually neutralizes this affect quite a bit and Fulton still comes out way ahead.

Fulton's local revenue pays for a greater proportion of the total expense, than Dekalb's
in 2011 I think Fulton $5,700/student and Dekalb provided $3,800. I mention this mainly not just to point out differences in funding, but I'm trying to show Dekalb has less ability to obtain more funds when needed to increase school quality...compared to just living within their means.

but this is also one piece of the puzzle... I don't want this part of this discussion to take away from my other comments on where the pool of students come from. A large part of it is the students and families themselves. Technically, Gwinnett and Cobb is funded less per student than Dekalb or Fulton and they are typically considered better school systems compared to Dekalb. (however they also have a lower school millage rate, so they have more ability to increase funding if they really needed to)

[aries4118]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

...but this is also one piece of the puzzle... I don't want this part of this discussion to take away from my other comments on where the pool of students come from. A large part of it is the students and families themselves. Technically, Gwinnett and Cobb is funded less per student than Dekalb or Fulton and they are typically considered better school systems compared to Dekalb. (however they also have a lower school millage rate, so they have more ability to increase funding if they really needed to)

Well said.

[lastminutemom]

DeKalb could actually raise its mileage rate as well, because it was grandfathered in when the cap was put in place.

The troubling thing about DeKalb isn't how it is doing compared to Cobb, Fulton, etc but how it is doing compared to systems like Clayton. DeKalb's lowest performing schools generally perform much worse than the lowest performing schools in Clayton especially at the elementary level. When you compare these schools demographically, they are often identical.

While Clayton is dysfunctional as well, something seems to be working slightly better than in DeKalb. There are others who believe that what is happening in City of Marietta and Rockdale are indications of what could be happening in DeKalb in terms of student achievement. I am more skeptical of those comparisons.