Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This discussion has been fascinating, even though I'm not sure I understand all of it. Hey, I'm just a simple bio-archaeologist, although now I kinda wish I'd spent my higher education dollars more wisely to become a plumber or an electrician instead.
I was trying to learn about solar thermal alternatives to reduce my propane bill, not my electric bill. I have a radiant floor heating system, which means that we have two gas-fired hot water heaters sitting side by side, one for the heating system and one for our household hot water. I assume the redundancy is because one is an open system and the other closed? Anyway, if I could cut even one of these systems off from propane, I'd be happy.
Our propane heating needs are reduced by the passive solar design of the house, a surprisingly effective wood-burning fireplace with heat redistribution vents, and thermostats set to 62; our propane supplier told me that we're already the lowest consumers of propane in our area, but propane still costs us three times as much as our electric bill.
Maybe I should just swap out my hot water system for a new tankless one and forget about the solar option. Especially since we can't get a solar provider to even call us back! But outside of our personal financial worries, I am deeply concerned by how dirty and dangerous fossil fuels are, in production, transport and usage, and I want to work towards independence from them. Four generations of my family have made their living in coal and oil, mind you, but those days are going-going-gone, it's time to move on.
Why?
I said a Prius wasn't a good investment. -- You followed by confirming it.
Oh, ok.
"A is the same as B".
"No, A is the opposite of B".
"See, we agree."
"How's that?"
"We both agree about A."
Quote:
Because ROI only needs to know what the stream of income is.
The income stream consists of:
[Savings] + [sellback to the utility] -
[taxes on the income from selling back to the utlity] = [net income stream]
(Note that the income stream from the bond would also
be taxable in my example of a competing income stream.)
Stream of income includes "selling to PNM". Not irrelevant unless that word's meaning has changed since the last time I looked it up.
Quote:
See? This is a number I was looking for. What does it cost to
install a system? I don't know why you can't just say it. It's not like I'm
going to claim you are lying when your logic errors are such easy pickings.
"You should buy a car."
"Well, how much does a car cost?"
"That depends on what you're looking for. How many people do you want to fit in it?"
"Why can't you just say it?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoidberg
21.5kW grid-tie kit will cost about $41k, and professional installation may run around $30k (far less if you do some of it yourself).
Quote:
It wouldn't be, but your math is faulty.
You added the 468 kWh twice.
You can either use it and save $51.48/mo.
-- << or >> --
you can sell it to the utility and earn a pre-tax income of $56.16/mo.
-- << or >> --
you can do a combination of both.
If the system generates 468 kWh/mo you
can't both use 468 kWh and sell 468 kWh.
Let's call that a return of 5% to be generous.
Actually, funkymonkey's math is exactly correct for El Paso Electric's program in Las Cruces.
What's flawed here is mortimer's assumption that you can't claim both credits. Most utilities allow for a net metering credit, which reduces your bill. Many utilities allow for a separate and distinct renewable energy credit (REC), which credits your account, resulting in a separate check being mailed if the balance gets high enough.
All bickering and one-upmanship aside, it just seems very inefficient to place the onus on individual customers to make the investment in tiny little solar production plants on their own property. If solar technology is a good investment, why isn't PNM building massive arrays that would eventually reduce everyone's costs? In this sense I can see the solar panels being compared to investing in a Prius, instead of mass transit.
Reading through Brendan's posts on Duke City Fix, it's obviously a huge commitment of time, effort, and paperwork on one individual just to get one household on-line. Shouldn't be necessary. Time is money, too, and I don't see where that gets factored in to this kind of investment.
it just seems very inefficient to place the onus on individual customers to make the investment in tiny little solar production plants on their own property.
For the customers, perhaps. For PNM, it's much simpler to put this program in place than to just build the plants themselves. Thus, it's very efficient (in terms of dollars spent and employees dedicated) if you're PNM.
Quote:
If solar technology is a good investment, why isn't PNM building massive arrays that would eventually reduce everyone's costs?
They are. One's going in near Reeves power station off Paseo Del Norte, and a huge one is going in near Deming.
Quote:
In this sense I can see the solar panels being compared to investing in a Prius, instead of mass transit.
Pretty good analogy.
Quote:
Reading through Brendan's posts on Duke City Fix, it's obviously a huge commitment of time, effort, and paperwork on one individual just to get one household on-line. Shouldn't be necessary. Time is money, too, and I don't see where that gets factored in to this kind of investment.
Well, if time is money, and knowledge is power, and power is just work divided by time, then the less you know, the more money you make.
... seems very inefficient to place the onus on individual
customers to make the investment in tiny little solar
production plants on their own property. ...
I'm not sure that is actually a bad thing.
It spreads out the generation capacity so that if there is a problem with
a central plant, there is still some energy being fed into the system from
all the 'little' generation facilities in the neighborhoods.
In addition, if PNM wants to build a big wind farm or solar farm, it requires
taking open land and developing it. Using the lots-of-roofs method, you
take space ( roof space ) that was previously not being used for anything
except absorbing sunlight and radiating it back into space ( outer space ).
No new infrastructure needs to be built to 'pipe' that electricity to where
it is needed, so you don't have to build large transmission lines to further
scar the landscape.
In the summer, there is an additional advantage of reducing the
Heat Island effect whereby urban areas stay warmer later into the
night than the surrounding desert areas.
There is a further advantage to the homeowner in that solar panels
tend to shade the roof reducing air-conditioning bills in the summer.
I suppose the correct answer is to try a few yourself. Perhaps Maggie's just had some bad luck, or picked a small subset of the huge number of installers in town. They've gone from perhaps 5 to probably north of 30 in the past three years. I bet she hasn't called them all.
You can either use it and save $51.48/mo.
-- << or >> --
you can sell it to the utility and earn a pre-tax income of $56.16/mo.
-- << or >> --
you can do a combination of both.
If the system generates 468 kWh/mo you
can't both use 468 kWh and sell 468 kWh.
Let's call that a return of 5% to be generous.
Well, I don't know about the PNM program, but for El Paso Electric they pay you ~$0.12 for the entire amount that you generate. It doesn't matter how much you use. If your panels create 500kwh they pay you for 500kwh.
On top of that they have net metering, in which they charge you for your usage only above what you generate.
The result is that you really only need to supply half of your electric usage with solar in order to reduce your bill to zero.
If PNM doesn't offer the same deal I apologize for any confusion.
The result is that you really only need to supply half
of your electric usage with solar in order to reduce
your bill to zero.
If PNM doesn't offer the same deal I apologize for any confusion.
Totally true.
What I meant was that in youir calculation of the value of
the stream of income, you counted the 468 kWh twice.
What I said was that it doesn't matter if you sell it or use it,
the stream of income is worth the approximately the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoidberg
What's flawed here is mortimer's assumption that you can't claim both credits.
Clearly I said exactly that.
If your solar panels generate 468 kWh, you can't say I make
make money from not using 468 kWh and selling the
exact same electricity to PNM. It's just physics, you can't
sell what you just used in your big screen TV.
If you want to use 468 kWh and sell 468 kWh, you have to
generate 936 kWh. According to funkymonkey's numbers,
that would cost you about $20k - a 5% return.
All bickering and one-upmanship aside, it just seems very inefficient to place the onus on individual customers to make the investment in tiny little solar production plants on their own property.
Wrong. Point of Use Power creation is much more efficient than a large solar array out on the mesa. Distribution lines are taken out of the equation, probably making it less expensive for PNM to provide the payments per kwh than investment in said solar array.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aries63
Reading through Brendan's posts on Duke City Fix, it's obviously a huge commitment of time, effort, and paperwork on one individual just to get one household on-line. Shouldn't be necessary. Time is money, too, and I don't see where that gets factored in to this kind of investment.
It is a large commitment of time. Of course, what he puts his time toward and what you put your time toward are probably different things. It doesn't make his time spent a waste.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
