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I made no comment about the frequency or demographics of needle sharing. I don't object or disagree to needle exchanges or other public health measures such as these on their face. It's the opposite, I am done with seeing people die and get sick.
It is not wise to guess or opine on the experiences of others. It is foolish to assume those in a discussion/debate with you are not knowledgeable or mistaken in what they know. To that end, pointing out that not everyone who tries heroin, or occasionally uses it, or perhaps once did experiment with a needle AUTOMATICALLY means they are an addict isn't necessary. The "once and your hooked" myth is a "duh" statement for anyone with any real knowledge, so please act in good faith and assume others are who and what they say they are unless proven otherwise.
My point remains, folks who use needles (not HAVE used at some point in life) are addicts or quickly on the path to it. There are exceptions, but to bank on a person who injects opiates, or really any street drugs, into their body as being a well adjusted and successful person at minimal risk of further harm is a mistake. As your link says, there is PAIN involved, it is not something 99% of people do on whims. Sometimes people are who they look like they are, and if you are using needles to inject drugs, you at minimum have a problem (drug use and risk taking behavior) and most likely are addicted.
I have compassion for people with these problems. I have seen too many die, too many struggle, and understand how and why it happens. Whether this compassion translates into supporting policies like those in the Bay Area is more difficult. There are no easy answers, but destroying communities isn't helpful either. I wish I could solve this problem; make communities happy, make addicts safer and more comfortable, keep as many people as possible from making mistakes that they will regret. I can't, but acknowledging that drug addiction and needle use are HUGE problems isn't debatable IMO, it's reality
I made no comment about the frequency or demographics of needle sharing. I don't object or disagree to needle exchanges or other public health measures such as these on their face. It's the opposite, I am done with seeing people die and get sick.
It is not wise to guess or opine on the experiences of others. It is foolish to assume those in a discussion/debate with you are not knowledgeable or mistaken in what they know. To that end, pointing out that not everyone who tries heroin, or occasionally uses it, or perhaps once did experiment with a needle AUTOMATICALLY means they are an addict isn't necessary. The "once and your hooked" myth is a "duh" statement for anyone with any real knowledge, so please act in good faith and assume others are who and what they say they are unless proven otherwise.
My point remains, folks who use needles (not HAVE used at some point in life) are addicts or quickly on the path to it. There are exceptions, but to bank on a person who injects opiates, or really any street drugs, into their body as being a well adjusted and successful person at minimal risk of further harm is a mistake. As your link says, there is PAIN involved, it is not something 99% of people do on whims. Sometimes people are who they look like they are, and if you are using needles to inject drugs, you at minimum have a problem (drug use and risk taking behavior) and most likely are addicted.
I have compassion for people with these problems. I have seen too many die, too many struggle, and understand how and why it happens. Whether this compassion translates into supporting policies like those in the Bay Area is more difficult. There are no easy answers, but destroying communities isn't helpful either. I wish I could solve this problem; make communities happy, make addicts safer and more comfortable, keep as many people as possible from making mistakes that they will regret. I can't, but acknowledging that drug addiction and needle use are HUGE problems isn't debatable IMO, it's reality
The bold in quoting you above is flatly not true. I’ll judge your experience based on what you post. It’s nice that you are feeling compassion for others. But your statement is misinformation. And I can provide voluminous rebuttal from many investigative and scholarly sources both …. Just as I have from NIH.
The NIH quote referring to heroin is not limited to heroin. That’s just one example.
The bold in quoting you above is flatly not true. I’ll judge your experience based on what you post. It’s nice that you are feeling compassion for others. But your statement is misinformation. And I can provide voluminous rebuttal from many investigative and scholarly sources both …. Just as I have from NIH.
The NIH quote referring to heroin is not limited to heroin. That’s just one example.
Some individuals experiment with it for a period of time and then quit; others are intermittent users, injecting only on weekends (so-called "weekend warriors") or on isolated occasions ("chippies") (Zinberg et al., 1977).
Your source is 47 years old and offers no quantitative data, only qualitative statements.
If your position is "there are lots of needle using drug enthusiasts who have no other problems than the quality of their needles" you are free to it. In 2024, I flatly reject it, in part because of the quality of street drugs and the vast difference between batches thanks to fentanyl, krok, tranq, etc.
The needles in this thread that are being complained about are pretty clearly discarded needles of homeless addicts, not from the however many well adjusted drug injecting enthusiasts are out there.
Again, the people that I knew who were open to using needles to inject street drugs didn't stay "weekend warriors" or "chippies" for long. They ended up addicts, mostly dead or deep in recovery. If your friends and family have found a way to use needles and stay alive as recreational users, count yourself lucky. The decline towards addiction is the most common story for needle users, and I will openly ask what your agenda is, what point is it you are trying to make?
Last edited by westsideboy; 04-09-2024 at 05:52 PM..
We have governments who aren’t that bright and think they are the brightest. Ie joe telling us the economy is great when food prices and customers are down in a small business does not help. Fed gov is out of touch with most of us. Too many living in the dc bubble not where we the people also live not in dc.
Some individuals experiment with it for a period of time and then quit; others are intermittent users, injecting only on weekends (so-called "weekend warriors") or on isolated occasions ("chippies") (Zinberg et al., 1977).
Your source is 47 years old and offers no quantitative data, only qualitative statements.
If your position is "there are lots of needle using drug enthusiasts who have no other problems than the quality of their needles" you are free to it. In 2024, I flatly reject it, in part because of the quality of street drugs and the vast difference between batches thanks to fentanyl, krok, tranq, etc.
The needles in this thread that are being complained about are pretty clearly discarded needles of homeless addicts, not from the however many well adjusted drug injecting enthusiasts are out there.
Again, the people that I knew who were open to using needles to inject street drugs didn't stay "weekend warriors" or "chippies" for long. They ended up addicts, mostly dead or deep in recovery. If your friends and family have found a way to use needles and stay alive as recreational users, count yourself lucky. The decline towards addiction is the most common story for needle users, and I will openly ask what your agenda is, what point is it you are trying to make?
Interesting how everyone in the world acknowledges that many people drink alcohol - yet relatively few become alcoholics.
Yet other recreational drugs (yes, booze is a drug) are all roads to hell for anyone who partakes.
Guess you didn’t read on much. Which is fine. But references continue on up through ‘88, 10 years further … but of course that’s still long past. Why that timeframe matters to you in this case, I don’t know. Some drugs being more potent than 20 - 30 years back is meaningless with respect to injection risks and habits.
But perhaps you also didn’t read the link I posted earlier, dated 2015 … which also rejects the myth of IV drug injection leading to automatic addiction in nearly all who use more than once or a couple times. Here, I’ll link again:
And if you can’t find “quantitative data” by following the links and references cited in the pieces, you aren’t trying. Moreover, your inference that “qualitative statements” are lacking in value as presented, when the sources for those “qualitative statements” are from scholarly research, - is bafflingly odd.
What is most striking perhaps though, is while you object to my [scholarly] research links - you’ve provided nothing but personal opinion of apparent anecdotal origins.
Meanwhile, I haven’t said anything about myself, family or friends. But since you asked - believe me or not, I’ll offer: I’m in my mid-70s … retired military … joined a veteran’s organization that houses recovering veterans … have assisted quite a number since my discharge decades ago: homeless, suicidal, alcoholics, drug addicts, schizophrenics, PTSD sufferers, et al.
And I’ve also known many drinkers and recreational drug users who have led fine lives free of addictions as well.
My agenda? Picking apart misinformation - intentional - unintentional, all alike - is just mental calisthenics for me. Keeps me sharp. I have no politics, religion, or ideologies. No agenda to change the world - or the stupidity of the internet. Physical and social anthropology, science, and logic are like hobbies for me.
Interesting how everyone in the world acknowledges that many people drink alcohol - yet relatively few become alcoholics.
Yet other recreational drugs (yes, booze is a drug) are all roads to hell for anyone who partakes.
One of the first things I noticed after getting sober was most people can and do drink responsibly.
Drugs? Good luck using say meth or fentanyl responsibly.
Anyway, regarding the Tenderloin: I walked through the area last summer and saw a number of sidewalk corners so grimy they looked almost black - with people hanging out and sleeping on them.
Interesting how everyone in the world acknowledges that many people drink alcohol - yet relatively few become alcoholics.
Yet other recreational drugs (yes, booze is a drug) are all roads to hell for anyone who partakes.
Guess you didn’t read on much. Which is fine. But references continue on up through ‘88, 10 years further … but of course that’s still long past. Why that timeframe matters to you in this case, I don’t know. Some drugs being more potent than 20 - 30 years back is meaningless with respect to injection risks and habits.
But perhaps you also didn’t read the link I posted earlier, dated 2015 … which also rejects the myth of IV drug injection leading to automatic addiction in nearly all who use more than once or a couple times. Here, I’ll link again:
And if you can’t find “quantitative data” by following the links and references cited in the pieces, you aren’t trying. Moreover, your inference that “qualitative statements” are lacking in value as presented, when the sources for those “qualitative statements” are from scholarly research, - is bafflingly odd.
What is most striking perhaps though, is while you object to my [scholarly] research links - you’ve provided nothing but personal opinion of apparent anecdotal origins.
Meanwhile, I haven’t said anything about myself, family or friends. But since you asked - believe me or not, I’ll offer: I’m in my mid-70s … retired military … joined a veteran’s organization that houses recovering veterans … have assisted quite a number since my discharge decades ago: homeless, suicidal, alcoholics, drug addicts, schizophrenics, PTSD sufferers, et al.
And I’ve also known many drinkers and recreational drug users who have led fine lives free of addictions as well.
My agenda? Picking apart misinformation - intentional - unintentional, all alike - is just mental calisthenics for me. Keeps me sharp. I have no politics, religion, or ideologies. No agenda to change the world - or the stupidity of the internet. Physical and social anthropology, science, and logic are like hobbies for me.
If you wish to debate, you understand the importance of not creating a "straw man" out of your opponent and presenting up to date references. Your comments to me are not just to me, they are big looping statements about the topic of this thread, in general, and continued assumptions about how much I read of your link or why I haven't given my own links (I can find no quantitative data that separates "addicts" and "recreational" among IV drug users. If I missed it, please share.)
In general, studies that are 30-40 years old will not be representative of current situations, not saying they lack all value, but what you posted wasn't quantitative anyway, just qualitative.
Let's not move the goalposts. We are talking specifically about "needle users" not the full set of drinkers/drug enthusiasts. My comments are specific to needle users. I'll reiterate my main point, which is injecting drugs through needles means "you have a problem." It is probably addiction, or heading down the path to it. If you work in that business I sincerely ask how or why you would EVER argue the opposite. You see lots of good clean needle users? Based on your resume, you have seen a lot of addicts. How did using needles work out for those people?
Honestly, this is a c'mon man moment. You can keep doubling down that injecting drugs through needles is overblown as a problem, and people like me somehow don't understand how normal most people who do this are, or admit that injecting drugs into your body with a needle is probably the WORST decision a human being can make for their health, and a decision not just correlated, but causal, to addiction, homelessness, and other very bad outcomes.
PR, ad campaigns, grants to update kitchen and street-facing facilities -- the city will spend millions on PR and inefficacious BS, but refuses to actually address the problem: homeless addicts.
1. Arrest, prosecute, imprison and deport the illegal alien Honduran drug dealers.
2. Arrest, prosecute, and imprison the gang members that supply them with drugs.
Those two items alone will solve a large part of the problem because the drugs addicts will simply leave to go where they can get drugs.
3. Boot the non-profits and NGOs that are enablers to addiction. No free needles, meals, no nothing. Make San Francisco an undesirable locale for addicts.
4. Power wash the sidewalks and gutters with steam and bleach. The entire Tenderloin. Make it shine.
5. Have a 24-hour visible police presence. Make it so people can eat this reportedly great food at midnight and feel safe to do it. Get police out of their cars and on the beat so they can get to know the area and people like they did in the old days.
I do like your approach. This needs to happen across all major cities in the U.S.. Especially booting the non-profits. You have to make the city undesirable for addicts, which means starving the city of handouts.
Also, many people immediately go after the dealers first. I feel like that is a backwards approach. You have to drive away the addicts first. Selling drugs won't happen there if there is no demand.
One of the first things I noticed after getting sober was most people can and do drink responsibly.
Drugs? Good luck using say meth or fentanyl responsibly.
Anyway, regarding the Tenderloin: I walked through the area last summer and saw a number of sidewalk corners so grimy they looked almost black - with people hanging out and sleeping on them.
Congratulations on your sobriety.
Your point on meth and fentanyl is well taken … except, what you are pointing out is specific to those two drugs. Though each of those can be used occasionally without becoming habitual, the danger of meth behaviors and of fentanyl dosing are extreme.
That said, a variety of other drugs including heroin, and other opiates especially, have been used for centuries by millions of people (yes, literally … recall the ‘opium dens’ referred to commonly in literature past) without habit of life destruction consequences.
We haven’t been discussing specific drugs. We’ve been discussing the perception that any and all iv injection use of drugs recreationally is an automatic path to addiction and self-destruction. Much as I personally eschew drug use (other than marijuana) - this misunderstanding and misinformation about iv use is simply not true.
Above stated factually, it’s not a bad thing in my mind that most people believe this particular myth. IV drug use is nasty, dangerous, and unnecessary to say the least.
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