Lancaster - yes or no? (Philadelphia, Pittsburgh: home, school district, Mennonites)

[lititzman2003]

My job allows me the opportunity to meet alot of people from Lancaster County and I've found that MOST of the residents of Lancaster City are nicer then SOME of those from the suburbs. Again, it's not everyone and not every town. I know from living in Philly that those who think, that because they may have a bigger house and a different zip code, they have to right to look down on others. I also feel that city residents don't have the fear of outsiders like some of their suburban neighbors. Honestly, I don't exactly know the reasons that people have to ignore others and make new residents feel that they're not welcome in their community. I do find it insulting, however, when a person acts like they don't hear you when you say hello to them as they walk past your house, scold their children when THEY hello to you, and then have the absolute gall to have the same child knock on your door a day later selling something for school or some other organization! This recently happened to us.

Move to Lancaster County for the geography, not the people.

[Marcey Lareson]

Well you must not know anything about Lancaster then, or Penn Manor. I'm sure you've never even stepped foot into Penn Manor before. And as for there being young teachers- yeah right. There is not one teacher there under the age of 30. And sorry to say but I'm sure you're only saying that because people from Penn Manor are actually samrt enough to go to high quality colleges. Just because our kids can make it out in the real world doesn't mean anything. Oh, and as far as KKK- i find it hilarious. Me nor anyone else here has ever once seen the KKK. And by the way, I'm not caucasion either. Your son probably didn't make it to Penn Manor because he takes after you. You're the one with the chip on your shoulder lady and Lancaster doesn't want you here anyway.

[Jimmy Morales]

I want to respond to those who get defensive and/or angry when folks mention that they want their kids to grow up around a diverse population. YES...it DOES, in fact, make a kid a better person. In the globalized, multicultural world of the 21st Century, if someone wants a career that takes any degree of professionalism beyond punching a time clock at Donnelly, they are going to need to understand how to get along with people of different racial, ethnic, and cultural backgrounds. Educated people from urban metro areas like NYC, Philly, Boston, DC, and Baltimore understand this concept. Uneducated hicks from farming/agricultural areas, which cling to their Bibles and religious fundamentalism because it is all they have ever known, generally do not grasp this concept. No offense to anyone, I am just pointing out this fact. That is why people want their kids to grow up around a diverse population. And as far as this whole thing about the "local school districts" having large populations of kids from all across the world...baloney. The only school district in Lancaster County with any degree of diversity is the one in Lancaster city. It's nothing but Bibles, Jesus freaks, and Mennonites outside the city. Outside of Lancaster city, the local white/Pennsylvania Dutch population that is native to this area is generally unfriendly and unwelcoming to outsiders - regardless of their background or color. And if you are not a fundamentalist, born-again Christian yourself, then look out! The locals will look at you as if you have a character flaw. I'm not kidding. There is a strong degree of anti-Catholic prejudice in Lancaster County, the kind that is reflected in mentalities like "Catholics are going to hell, because they are not really Christian." Just imagine what it would be like for Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, or Muslims out here? Evolution and Charles Darwin are each considered heresy by the vast majority of the local population. To sum it up, Lancaster County is very white, very Christian, and very conservative...although things are slowly changing as more folks from NYC and Philly are relocating here (thank god).

[Icy Tea]

I agree on diversity being important. I had the opportunity to visit relatives in a northern tier Pa county, off the beaten tracks. It was boring: 95%+ white and not even culturally vibrant like many communities can be. It had some diversity, italian, german, polish,amish but that was it. Very white bread and boring. The only thing I really liked about it was hearing english being spoken exclusively, that and the unspoiled scenery.
But I can go into my far more diverse county's major city( near Lancaster and very similar to it) and find whole communities just as stagnant and boring and lacking diversity and its the exact opposite of being white bread. And they're every bit as unfriendly to those they consider outsiders. But if people are happy and satisfied and actually want that, nobody has the right to criticize them. Just live where you want to live and how you want to live and if somebody else lives in a nicer place than you, maybe they know something you don't. And not getting along almost always takes two parties not being willing to make an effort to understand or appreciate the other.
Lancaster county is a great place to live, but it has its flaws. But it has its many strengths. and a huge part of what makes it great is from the people who have lived there for generations and made it what it is. If you don't like it, don't move there.

[Jimmy Morales]

I am a firm believer that it is the religious fundamentalism among the local population that drives a good chunk of their reluctance to accept newcomers and outsiders. Religious bigotry and racism are inherently connected, in my mind. People who have deluded themselves that "God and Jesus are on their side" tend to hold self-righteous, holier than thou views of others and the world as a whole...they tend to be blinded by their own interpretation of scripture and religion. I would say Lancaster is far more religiously intolerent than racially intolerent, although I do feel that the two are interconnected. Like I said earlier, Lancaster County is very white, very Christian, and very conservative. It is an area that does not embrace change willingly or easily (much like neighboring York County). The local population's entire concept of America and the world is based on their own limited understanding of humanity based on their immediate community. Much of the local populace has never ventured outside of their surroundings, so this is all they know. The problem with this mentality is that it is no longer the 1950s and, like it or not, we are living in the 21st century and it is no longer viable for people to live their lives governed by religion, suspicion, and age old traditions. The general religious conservativism and unwilligness to embrace cultural change within Lancaster County produces an anti-intellectualism among many locals that results in a life of low-wage, low-skilled labor working on farms or in factories - like Kunzler, Donnelly, or Armstrong. That would be fine with me, but the problem is that, from my encounters, many locals stuck in these jobs hold a degree of frustration due to the understable anxieties that results from the economic insecurities of this low-wage employment...and they then proceed to displace this resentment onto racial and ethnic minorities, foreigners, "liberals" (which in this area means anyone who does not take a literal interpretation of the Bible), feminists, transplants from NYC and Philly, and just about anyone else who is not like them. This mentality exists all over, but is particularly strong in southern Lancaster County (the region below Kendig Square).

While Lancaster County is not the poorest county in Pennsylvania, a study conducted by the local print media last year did confirm that the population of Lancaster County is both poorer and less educated than the overall state population. Wages paid by local employers in the Lancaster area are lower than those of the state as a whole. Not surprisingly, the highest educated and most affluent counties in the state included Allegheney, Dauphin, Montgomery, Delaware, Bucks, and Chester. Lancaster County will continue to fall behind socioeconomically in the 21st century until its population finally figures out that America is no longer an agrarian or industrial society, that higher education is no longer optional, and putting down the Bible occasionally to pick up a science or social studies book is NOT a bad thing.

[soulsurv]

Just curious: do you folks find areas such as Atglen, Gap and Strausburg to be just as insular? They're rather on the "outskirts" of the county, aren't they - not deep into the heart of it all?

I was actually thinking of looking around there as NJ didn't work out for me, sadly (I'm in Delco now, and can't wait to get out to a more rural, less congested area). I am a fundamental Protestant, but would not bother with those who are insincere and intolerant. Being active with the neighbors is not at all important to me (unless they needed my help), but I would not want to be cheated by local workman who see an outsider woman living alone.

And a BIG thing for me is racism - is it overt or what? My nieces have biracial marriages, and I adore my nephews-in-law - it would kill me if they were to detect an attitude.

So are the above areas a bit less hostile than others, do you think?

[Jimmy Morales]

Gap is located right on the border with Chester County, and Chester County is part of the Philadelphia metro region...although Gap is still what I call "Christian Country." You do see the Amish quite a bit out at Gap, but the locals are used to "outsiders" passing through as Gap connects to both Philadelphia and Delaware.

It would definitely be difficult to fully be accepted as an "insider" regardless of where you live in Lancaster County...the area is very insular indeed. However, things would probably (in my estimation) be a degree better and more welcoming in Gap than in, say, Manheim or Mount Joy just because of where Gap is located near the Philadelphia metro region and near the Delaware border. Being a Protestant Christian is definitely a plus towards gaining acceptance, but I would be a bit concerned about your biracial nieces and nephews. I will be honest...I have only ever heard of one Ku Klux Klan rally in Lancaster County in my lifetime (in September 2001), and hate groups do not appear to be active in Lancaster Country (but in neighboring York and Adams Counties they are very active). More so, the type of racism that is found in Lancaster County is what I call "paternalistic" racism [the mentality that the white, PA Dutch locals are the "zookeepers" and blacks and Latinos are the "animals," if you can follow that logic]. The paternalism is palpable. Your family would not be attacked by the Klan, but they definitely would be made to feel like outsiders and like they do not belong and are unwelcomed (both as minorities and as outsiders).

Many historians and local professors of sociology attribute the strong insular nature of the Lancaster area to its overwhelming Pennsylvania German heritage, which exerts a considerable force on the local cultural climate. This character is described as more serious than fun loving, mistrustful of outsiders, unwilling to accept change or difference, shy and suspicious. I think this is a very accurate description of the locals...and I had to find out the hard way when I moved to Lancaster from Philadelphia five years ago.

[PiperGrace]

I grew up in Lancaster (School Lane Hills, actually), lived in Philly for most of my late teens- mid 20s and moved back to Lancaster a few years ago (I'm 30 now). School Lane Hills is beautiful. I can't speak for the quality of the school district because I went to a private school. What I can say is that I wish I had gone to McCaskey for high school (Lancaster School District) simply because of the diversity and the fact that it was in the city. I went to Manheim Central because my family moved to Manheim when I was 14. Manheim was awful for me. It was so country bumpkin and backwards, and I just never fit in very well.

For those who say Lancaster locals are unfriendly-- eh...I'm not entirely sure I agree with that. I'm a local and I know I love meeting new people, whether they're from here or from somewhere else. I live in the city now and I find the city people to be more progressive than those who live in the suburbs, but that's sort of the norm just about anywhere. I think there is a younger generation of the 25-40 age bracket that is much more accepting than the previous generations.

I do know this area deals with a lot of tourists and sometimes tourists are very rude and clueless, so maybe that's why some locals don't like people from out of the area- they assume you are a tourist? I don't know. I don't mind tourists myself, but some people do.

Originally Posted by Jimmy Morales

While Lancaster County is not the poorest county in Pennsylvania, a study conducted by the local print media last year did confirm that the population of Lancaster County is both poorer and less educated than the overall state population. Wages paid by local employers in the Lancaster area are lower than those of the state as a whole. Not surprisingly, the highest educated and most affluent counties in the state included Allegheney, Dauphin, Montgomery, Delaware, Bucks, and Chester. Lancaster County will continue to fall behind socioeconomically in the 21st century until its population finally figures out that America is no longer an agrarian or industrial society, that higher education is no longer optional, and putting down the Bible occasionally to pick up a science or social studies book is NOT a bad thing.

I'd really like to see a link to that study because everything I've read and researched indicates a completely different picture. Lancaster is actually the 13th wealthiest county in the state (out of 67), so I don't know where you're getting this poorer than average business. I suppose when you consider that most of the state's population is located in Philadelphia, which holds the highest positions of wealth in the state, this shifts the averages both of wealth and education. But it does not, by any stretch, indicate that Lancaster County is poorer and less educated than the rest of the state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._capita_income

A few other stats for you:
From a local magazine's media kit:
HOUSEHOLD INCOME extrapolated from home value:
Households with income less than $50,000 = 7%
Households with income between $50,000 and $100,000 = 58%
Households with income over $100,000 = 35%

According to salary.com, for the job I do in marketing, Lancaster city is only about $1000 lower than the national average. So, it's most definitely not poor, by any stretch. Average? Maybe. Granted, that's only in one job field, but overall, Lancaster is not poor (see above statistics to back that one up). Have you been to any of the counties between Lancaster and Pittsburgh? Or how about the counties to the north? Those are much more depressed and poor than Lancaster, and the statistics back that one up.

And here's a picture of the 17603 zip code at the time of the 2000 census-
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet...ab=&redirect=Y

From http://www.ecanned.com/PA/Lancaster_County.shtml: (broken link)
"Compared to other counties (and parishes) throughout the nation, Lancaster County accounted a relatively high median income for households of $53,243 (2005 Dollars). The income level is 11.9 percent higher than the median in Pennsylvania of $46,924 and the median is 7.7 percent higher than the median in the US, which is $49,133....
Since 2000, Lancaster has increased in the percent of the population that is over the age of 25 with a BA or Higher. This population cohort has grown by 2.4 percent to a total of 23 percent in 2005. According to the American Community Survey, the proportion of the population in 2005 with a BA or Higher is less than the 2005 State of Pennsylvania percent of 25.6 and less than the national percent of 27.2."

So, education might be slightly lower than average, but it's not that much lower. Really, a difference of 2.6% from the state average? Good grief. You make it sound like a bunch of uneducated morons live here. (By the way, I'm working on a second master's degree, so I most definitely do not fall into your skewed statistics.) And I'd guess the number of educated people will increase with the 2010 census.

I'd suggest before you go waving around hasty generalizations that you back it up with research and facts.

*Sorry I can't post live links; I'm new here.

[Jimmy Morales]

To the posterabove, who says, and I quote, " I'd suggest before you go waving around hasty generalizations that you back it up with research and facts,"...here is the link/reference requested:

County Employment and Wages in Pennsylvania

As you can see, Lancaster's wages rank slighter lower than even those for YORK County. Like I said earlier, the county is not nearly the poorest but it is far from affluent.

Another thing too...it is the influx of more affluent, higher educated people from the Philadelphia metro region that is driving up the average education level of Lancaster County that you mention in the previous post. Over the past decade, a growing number of "transplants" (migrants to Lancaster County from the Philly suburbs or Philadelphia itself) have relocated to Lancaster County to take advantage of a lower cost of living and then commute to work in Philadelphia or along the Main Line. But don't take my word for it. Anybody who thinks this is just a "hasty generalization" because it contradicts their "Amish bliss" notion of Lancaster County can simply go to the Amtrak station near the Career Link any day of the week and ask the commuters.

We need to start thinking outside of the box and connecting the dots here, folks. The growth of "transplants" (educated professionals) into the local area boosts the income level of the county, which is still stuck in the middle-tier for the state as a whole, and the influx also boosts the education level for the county as a whole.

[Gil3]

Excellent posts, Jimmy. However, I must respectfully disagree with you on one statement:

It is an area that does not embrace change willingly or easily (much like neighboring York County). The local population's entire concept of America and the world is based on their own limited understanding of humanity based on their immediate community.


I personally have found Lancaster (at least the metro core area) to be much more liberal, open minded and accepting than York. I'm sure it's proximity to the Phila. metro area and F&M could be a couple of factors.

I'm Catholic, but have a relative who is Unitarian and considering a move to the area. She researched the local church in Lancaster and was surprised to see that the congregation there exceeds 600. Now that in itself may not be a barometer of an area's degree of acceptance, but Unitarianism is a religion that embraces diversity.