ConED Heat pump incentives for 3-family homes (buying, new construction)

[L00k4ward]

Originally Posted by charmed hour

Heat pumps and mini splits are far more energy efficient than gas boilers.

Please explain: how so?

Don’t rush, I’ll wait.

Don’t forget to figure out how much of the natural gas is used to produce electricity how much is lost during the transmission of that electricity to your “efficient” unit.
(Don’t look: it is a secret, avert your eyes - it is only 33% that reaches you, but now you could claim that they 200 or even on occasion 300% efficient, unless it is below freezing of course - when it is cheaper to just use a portable infrared room heater directed at you)

You could just burn propane in your house with 99% efficiency and stay warm without below mentioned headaches
(The furnace lasts longer, doesn’t bother your neighbors with the compressor noise, doesn’t cost the equivalent of a car, etc)

Don’t forget to look into your heat pump /splits manuals which says that its highest coefficiency of production is designed for temperature that you may not even need too much heat if at all for some.

Look up at what type of the refrigerants they are using and when those refrigerant must stopped being used according to legislation
The ones that replace them may have some fire hazards issues: it is all in the owner’s manuals.
Don’t spray, don’t place near electronics, not near people, not near… etc

How often you suppose to clean and change filters, etc
How much it adds up - those are not the same filters you buy at Walmart.

Oh, you forgot - search for moldy interior units photos on internet - nothing is more scary..

How often would your outside compressor turn on an electric resistance heat to thaw itself out in cold weather

While there - how substantial are those copper tubes and aluminum fins - aren’t you living on the coast? Corrosion is a female dog!
Some specifically mention the distance from salt water for install, but most prefer to shut up about that.

Don’t forget to maintain those outside things too, here goes your efficiency again: cleaning, blowing, removing snow and ice, dust, rodents,etc

Too much humidity - don’t you dare to run that for more then 3 hours - you may have your interior room damage from dripping water..- all in the manuals.(in the better manufacturers’ only -the rest are “remain silent” - why bother you with such unpleasant details?)


Not even talking about ignorant HVAC installers who can’t or won’t read the very precise installation instructions which they can’t or won’t follow - which is the crux to that above mentioned “efficiency “

None of them of course will do a Manual J calculations and none of them will design accordingly - because they are not really educated HVAC - they are salesmen and will sell you and install more than you need leading to high electric bills, clammy air, cycling, mold and your discomfort
Good luck

[charmed hour]

Look, I'm no geothermal expert, electrician or HVAC professional. But I presently have whole house baseboard electric heat (Live in the Poconos by way of the Bronx. We've been looking intoto converting over to mini-split, heat pump (or pellet stove) they are gaining traction out here, especially in new builds. As is solar. I'd say based on the fact the Poconos is colder, on average, than the city especially in the winter months, there absolutely must be some savings to be had moving to them as the vast majority of homes out here are like mine, whole house electric baseboard.

Solely, researching the two is where when comparing an apples-to-apples efficiency model of mini split/heat pump vs most gas-fired boilers or furnaces where my statement of "more energy efficient" comes from. I mean you can do your own research.

I'm not going to write a manifesto in response.

[L00k4ward]

Originally Posted by charmed hour

Look, I'm no geothermal expert, electrician or HVAC professional. But I presently have whole house baseboard electric heat (Live in the Poconos by way of the Bronx. We've been looking intoto converting over to mini-split, heat pump (or pellet stove) they are gaining traction out here, especially in new builds. As is solar. I'd say based on the fact the Poconos is colder, on average, than the city especially in the winter months, there absolutely must be some savings to be had moving to them as the vast majority of homes out here are like mine, whole house electric baseboard.

Solely, researching the two is where when comparing an apples-to-apples efficiency model of mini split/heat pump vs most gas-fired boilers or furnaces where my statement of "more energy efficient" comes from. I mean you can do your own research.

I'm not going to write a manifesto in response.

You may not live long enough to save the money you will spend on buying them, installation, perhaps re-installation (troubleshooting - a lot of ignorant HVAC), servicing.

My advise.
Spend your best money on air sealing your house and insulation first. You could do it yourself - not difficult - educate yourself, but tedious and dirty in retrofit.
You’ll be working for yourself, saving a lot of money. No one is better qualified for this type of work than you.
None of the guys you hire will do a good job

Then look into heat pumps if you think they ban gas and wood stoves - you may not need too much heat after airsealing and insulation and you won’t be heating the street with your dollars ..so you could get away with the less expensive equipment as you won’t need many heads and extensive install.

Not the most efficient - but they have DIY mini-splits; may save you money due to its being less expensive and no installation costs- still hire an electrician.
Another benefit - they provide sealed refrigerant lines, so no install mistakes or lost refrigerants - which will affect the operation and efficiency.That is why it is possible to diy

If your house is tight and you are willing to try something newer - look into infrared wall heaters - same resistance heat as your baseboards but heat you, your furniture and not the air - so you are comfortable at a colder temps - sort of like feeling the Sun and being warm on a cold day outside.

Try one in the bathroom to see if you like it - some of them look like mirror or just white glass on the wall

[Werdywerd]

Originally Posted by L00k4ward

You may not live long enough to save the money you will spend on buying them,

Same for solar. Most people dont realize they have to invest 20-40k for installation. By the time they pay that off and recoup the savings will be 20-30 years from now.

[lylecooper]

Anyone have information on Con-ed and the rebates?

As far as mini-splits being efficient - I'm rather skeptical. Natural gas is cheap. Electricity is not. Condensers are running 240V x 25amps and up. But all these young NYC renters want individual climate control. And they don't want to deal with window ACs.

[BugsyPal]

[quote=lylecooper;66382663]Anyone have information on Con-ed and the rebates?

As far as mini-splits being efficient - I'm rather skeptical. Natural gas is cheap. Electricity is not. Condensers are running 240V x 25amps and up. But all these young NYC renters want individual climate control. And they don't want to deal with window ACs.[/QUOTE]

It's not just renters, but city and state are pushing a climate agenda big time.

City's climate laws (passed under Bloomberg) all but mandate doing away with window/wall AC and even PTAC units in favor of some sort of central AC.

In most if not all new construction you have windows that barely open much less can accommodate an AC.

[mathjak107]

[quote=BugsyPal;66382752]

Originally Posted by lylecooper

Anyone have information on Con-ed and the rebates?

As far as mini-splits being efficient - I'm rather skeptical. Natural gas is cheap. Electricity is not. Condensers are running 240V x 25amps and up. But all these young NYC renters want individual climate control. And they don't want to deal with window ACs.[/QUOTE]

It's not just renters, but city and state are pushing a climate agenda big time.

City's climate laws (passed under Bloomberg) all but mandate doing away with window/wall AC and even PTAC units in favor of some sort of central AC.

In most if not all new construction you have windows that barely open much less can accommodate an AC.

just a point of information that is interesting


one of the issues utilities have is that because of what is called power factor they actually can’t bill you for 220v x the amperage .

an electric meter reads actual wattage and because of inductance with motors , ballasts and transformers , they actually measure less then 220v x amps .

so they have to provide you with more power then they can bill …

most factories in our area have a power factor surcharge so they can recoup some of the power they provide but can’t bill .

i sold power factor correction capacitors to improve the power factor so these surcharges , which are quite high could be removed .

residences do not get hit with the surcharge but they also are provided more power then the utility can bill. not that i feel sorry for them

[BugsyPal]

Originally Posted by blanketyblank

Heat pumps are basically useless in freezing weather. They’re OK for the 40-50 range but most New Yorkers don’t even turn on the heat at these temps anyway.

No, not really. But then again there are heat pump systems, and there are *Heat Pump Systems*.

Newer heat pump systems are being used in places like Minnesota and Canada among other places that routinely see winters far colder than anything we get in NYC.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCZrBI3PFag


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3jIRRzF6d0

https://www.consumerreports.org/heat...s-a4929629430/

This whole argument about severe cold weather and heat pumps is fast becoming moot.

Past several winters in NYC we've had maybe less than three or four weeks tops of really severe cold weather. It rarely goes below freezing and certainly not extended periods of 20's or lower we once got back in the day.

It's first week of February and temps are in 40's or maybe 30's. NYC hasn't had a major snowstorm in years either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsfZ8UsVLcc

[OyCrumbler]

Originally Posted by under a mountain

Oh so wind and solar. Good luck with that. Sun hasn't shone in a week.

You're going to for the most part import the electricity the same way New York City imports the vast majority of its natural gas. You understand that New York City is not a major natural gas producer, right?

Much of New York City's electricity is generated via natural gas from elsewhere. Heat pumps generally are so efficient for heating that you're still going to effectively have more efficient heating indoors from a natural gas generation plant generating electricity, transmitting it to the NYC area with a bit of loss, having it then distributed to their endpoints which entail another bit of loss and then powering the heat pump than it would be having that same amount of natural gas burned off for heat. That's a higher efficiency with even the same base source of energy of natural gas. What's even better though is that since the heat pump operates via electricity, you can substitute other sources for generating electricity and have greater flexibility in what the primary energy source is rather than being trapped into natural gas for the long haul.

[BugsyPal]

Again it's early February and daytime temps for most of this week have been in middle to high 50's or brushing with 60's. Night temps aren't exactly freezing either.

Thus all this noise about heat pump heating for NYC and much of downstate area is fast becoming moot. Unless things start going back to weeks or months of temps at or well below freezing whole debate whether HPs can keep up isn't worth having.