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The shadows of that divide are still pretty apparent today though, in the scale of the education, healthcare, aged care and social service systems affiliated with the Catholic Church. That aspect of the Irish legacy doesn't look like it will disappear anytime soon.
Yes, but my mother, who was a life long agnostic, was well looked after in a Catholic aged care facility, where there was absolutely no pressure on her to participate in any of the religious activities. And I hear of so many people who get their kids baptised Catholic simply because they want them to go to a particular Catholic school. So certainly the divide has left its mark but is no longer especially divisive.
Our daughter had been with her now husband for at least a year before we even thought to ask if he followed any religion. That certainly would not have happened when I was young.
Given the original question that I (the OP) asked, is it fair to say that New Zealand is less "American" than Australia but more so than South Africa in terms of the whole gestalt comprising such things as plug socket shapes, automatic transmissions in cars, and road signs? Or more accurately, that things like the plug socket shapes and automatic transmissions are the same as in Australia, but that a portion of the road signs are more "European" sort of more like in South Africa?
Last edited by yofie; 04-18-2024 at 10:45 AM..
Reason: to be more correct/accurate
The shadows of that divide are still pretty apparent today though, in the scale of the education, healthcare, aged care and social service systems affiliated with the Catholic Church. That aspect of the Irish legacy doesn't look like it will disappear anytime soon.
Australia is the only other English speaking nation in the world other than Ireland where the largest religion today is Catholicism. This was largely in the past due to the Irish and later Italians, Polish, French etc but today this number is staying high because of the migrants from Catholic countries such as the Philippines, parts of Africa and South American countries.
At the end of the day the Catholic Church is the biggest non government provider of education and healthcare in the world. There is no shadows or any divide in Australia today due to this as it benefits so many including millions of non Catholics. Catholic and Protestants in fact have never been closer. It is the militant secularists that have become Australia's main problem over the years intolerant of anyone else's views and are even attempting to force their radical ideologies onto religious education. They already have done so to an extent with the public system. The number of Non Catholics who then try and put their Children though Catholic education i found quite amusing when i got here. Some of these people are even quite hostile to the Church but the public system has become such a shambles in recent years and i see it as a good thing as hopefully they will eventually come to know what the real Church is, not the secular media's version of it. I'll be making sure my Children are brought up to know Christ and his Church as best i can which is complimented by the Catholic education system
Yes, but my mother, who was a life long agnostic, was well looked after in a Catholic aged care facility, where there was absolutely no pressure on her to participate in any of the religious activities. And I hear of so many people who get their kids baptised Catholic simply because they want them to go to a particular Catholic school. So certainly the divide has left its mark but is no longer especially divisive.
Our daughter had been with her now husband for at least a year before we even thought to ask if he followed any religion. That certainly would not have happened when I was young.
To be fair it was very hard for a Catholic to be allowed to Marry a non Catholic for many years in the Church. Even today for a Catholic to Marry someone who isn't Baptized then the Marriage is not sacramental obviously as one person isn't Christian. There still needs to be permission given from the Bishop so one can understand why they would be asked this.
On the other hand and not to get too off topic it's actually harder i notice for people to find a potential partner in today's secular society than decades ago in a more religiously divided society. The reason is that while most people are under the single banner of Secularism there has never been more radically different ideologies that have gripped so many in the west. Just look at identity politics. Trying to find someone with similar values is actually harder for so many as peoples values are now so different from each other. Most Christians, Catholic and Protestants have similar values but today in our growing secular society you have a growing number of people who want such different things. Many don't even want a family but to solely pursue their own interests with or without a partner. Therefore and i'm sure you agree as it's obvious everywhere we have never been more divided in the west than under the banner of secularism and the relativistic ideologies it is brought
Australia is the only other English speaking nation in the world other than Ireland where the largest religion today is Catholicism. This was largely in the past due to the Irish and later Italians, Polish, French etc but today this number is staying high because of the migrants from Catholic countries such as the Philippines, parts of Africa and South American countries.
At the end of the day the Catholic Church is the biggest non government provider of education and healthcare in the world. There is no shadows or any divide in Australia today due to this as it benefits so many including millions of non Catholics. Catholic and Protestants in fact have never been closer. It is the militant secularists that have become Australia's main problem over the years intolerant of anyone else's views and are even attempting to force their radical ideologies onto religious education. They already have done so to an extent with the public system. The number of Non Catholics who then try and put their Children though Catholic education i found quite amusing when i got here. Some of these people are even quite hostile to the Church but the public system has become such a shambles in recent years and i see it as a good thing as hopefully they will eventually come to know what the real Church is, not the secular media's version of it. I'll be making sure my Children are brought up to know Christ and his Church as best i can which is complimented by the Catholic education system
Polish and French immigration to Australia was extremely minor
Given the original question that I (the OP) asked, is it fair to say that New Zealand is less "American" than Australia but more so than South Africa in terms of the whole gestalt comprising such things as plug socket shapes, automatic transmissions in cars, and road signs? Or more accurately, that things like the plug socket shapes and automatic transmissions are the same as in Australia, but that a portion of the road signs are more "European" sort of more like in South Africa?
Things like road signs and power sockets are more a result of a country’s spirit of place rather than defining it. The physical country itself, the cultures of indigenous and settler populations, lifestyles, and the collective history of the place are really what define any country.
In terms of those metrics Australia is certainly a lot more diverse than New Zealand, and with that Australia’s national narrative is less well defined and contains a lot more contradictions, uncertainties and apposing perspectives.
That’s probably why a lot of Kiwies describe Australia as chaotic, disorganised, or lacking cohesion. But fluidity and diversity create space for opportunities, which partly explains why so many Kiwis migrate to Australia.
Whether that makes Australia more “American” and New Zealand more “British” is a moot point. Each country is what it is, just like any person cannot be understood by constant comparison of their grandparents.
How does South Africa fit into this? I’ve never been there and have idea how representative of the country SA migrants in Aus really are.
I'm wondering just what has made South Africa a more isolated society for a long time, if not just apartheid and its effects?
Perhaps a greater patriotic stance by the ruling Afrikaners. Fighting a war in the last century against British domination, likely contributed along with other factors, to outcomes resulting. Hence there was something of a parochial stance, it could be argued among certain groups.
The divide between the two 'White Tribes' was real. In years after apartheid was introduced, things like the banning of certain music and films. TV was not a feature when I first went there. When it did come programs were censored prior to being allowed on SA tv.
But isolated? The young would pay for smuggled in albums. I knew guys that had a deal with crew members on the Union Castle Shipping Line that were regular callers into Cape Town. Made them minor celebrities obtaining such banned items, it would probably be fair to say. They were quite aware to what was going on regardless of censorship laws.
Obviously those living in more remote areas, probably not so much. The English as a first language generally more so than the Afrikaans. It largely depended on group hanging out with.
Then there were many European migrants. Portuguese , many came down to SA after their nation gave independence to their colonies.
That’s probably why a lot of Kiwies describe Australia as chaotic, disorganised, or lacking cohesion. But fluidity and diversity create space for opportunities, which partly explains why so many Kiwis migrate to Australia.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone describe Australia as chaotic, dis-organised, or lacking in cohesion - over here, or over there.
Aussie just has a bigger population, with more opportunities from a bigger economy, and climate and geographical size that hold a lot of appeal for many - no one hops on the plane seeking fluidity and diversity driven opportunities
I don't think I've ever heard anyone describe Australia as chaotic, dis-organised, or lacking in cohesion - over here, or over there.
Over here I have, lots of times, particularly about life in cities like Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, and even the absence of a sporting code that “everyone” follows..
You might not use the term “diversity driven opportunities” but the greater range of opportunities in Aus is driven as much by the greater diversity of the country, not just its larger size.
Last edited by Bakery Hill; 04-21-2024 at 03:00 PM..
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