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First of all, I'd like to say, let's not turn this thread into politics or gender wars, cause there is a bit of a gender and age issue here. I'm only looking for specific suggestions on how to deal with this situation.
I'm a woman in my 30s who recently changer careers, so basically starting form the bottom, and I'm having a problem with a man in his 50s, who has done the same, and started working in the same position as me 2 weeks before I have started. Yet he keeps behaving like he is my boss, and our whole work together feels like I'm some kind of incompetent child who is trying to help his dad to hold a flashlight, while he is working on his car.
A little back story (i'm going to make up an industy for convenience):
Let's say we are producing cotton candy. So I would like to learn how to make cotton candy, but I don't have any education or experience in this field, so I was able to get an assistant position at a small company that produces cotton candy. My position right now is just packaging, cleaning and assisting with various basic tasks. There are only 4 people I work directly with: 2 people who either have proper education or/and years of experience, so they are in charge of production, and there is this other guy (let's call him Dave) and I who were hired around the same time to assist with packaging and cleaning.
Dave has no experience too, and he only got hired 2 weeks before me. I'm the only woman working here, and the job is a bit manly, as we are running packaging machines, dealing with the jars, boxes and hoses, chemicals to clean etc. So I do agree that men are naturally better at these kind of jobs, but I'm working hard and learning. I was following Dave and listening to everything he said, for the first couple of weeks, because the job isn't that complicated, but you still need someone to show you how to start the machines, which buttons to push, which chemicals to clean etc. Now its been 3 months, and I'm capable of these tasks, but, I guess because of the dynamics we developed, he still acts like he is in charge, and becomes really rude and condescending if I try to argue, fight back or even questing something. Sometimes I really don't know something, and then I don't have a problem if he shows it to me, I ask questions etc, bit often he just seems to micromanage and tell me to do stuff that is very trivial, just because he decided to do it that way, and he also takes over anything new we are learning, so he knows how to do it, and I don't.
Since, it's only been 3 months, there are still things that both of us don't know about, so whenever any of the experience guys are trying to teach us, he would just grab stuff, and start doing it. Whenever I try to get involved he would say something like "just stop. Don't touch. Just wait, why can't you just wait? Just relax,OK? Omg, just relax". I'm not a shy person, but what am I supposed to do, push him? So in the end, he learns more stuff than me, and the other 2 guys who are experienced see how he is doing way better than me.
Then he keeps barking orders at me, when I'm doing basic every day tasks. I have learned all of them after 2-3 weeks of being there, and I am doing this, but for some reason, he thinks his duty is to tell me to do it anyway. For example, just randomly walking by and telling g my to connect this hose or push this button, that I was just about to do anyway.
On top of that, micromanagement about trivial things is the worst. Sometimes I think he is on a power trip and just decided he wants to do things certain way, when it doesn't even matter, so he interrupts what I'm doing and tells me to do things differently. Things like, where I'm even putting the product cause a bunch of issues. I was by myself, and I have asked one of the guys in charge where should I put the boxes, he told me it doesn't matter between a couple of spots. So I started stacking them in one of the spots. Then Dave shows up, becomes super rude about why am I putting them there, and they should go to this different spot. I told him, that inwas told it doesn't matter, he just rolled his eyes and moved everything to a different spot.
The incident that inspired me to write this, when I got really fed up, as just about putting stickers on the packaging. We have a machine that does it, but there was a problem, so we had to run it at a very low speed. So I actually just had to stand there and wait with nothing to do. One of the supervisors told me that we don't have enough stickers, and there are a few more we'll have to put manually. So I decided to start doing that while waiting. Dave saw that and told me to stop doing this. I asked him why, because I was told we don't have enough, so we'll put some manually, so why not do it now when I don't have anything else to do. He just kept telling me to stop doing that, and how I should stop asking why why why all the time, and what am I, a child?
So I'm just looking for suggestions how can I get out or this "relationship" and put him in his place. I'm also thinking if talking to someone in charge is a good idea or not. Its not a big company with hr or anything like that, and I'm a bit worried as being the only woman, people might think I'm just causing drama. Aside this issue, the whole culture is very relaxed and easy going, so I'm not sure if unwanted to start causing issues. My probation should be done in a few days. I have lost my job during the covid lockdowns, and I've been struggling to find something for a while, so kind of afraid to lose it
Don't let this fester. You're already sensitized and he will take up more and more space in your head unless you re-frame it and learn some techniques.
First of all, I'd like to say, let's not turn this thread into politics or gender wars, cause there is a bit of a gender and age issue here. I'm only looking for specific suggestions on how to deal with this situation.
I'm a woman in my 30s who recently changer careers, so basically starting form the bottom, and I'm having a problem with a man in his 50s, who has done the same, and started working in the same position as me 2 weeks before I have started. Yet he keeps behaving like he is my boss, and our whole work together feels like I'm some kind of incompetent child who is trying to help his dad to hold a flashlight, while he is working on his car.
A little back story (i'm going to make up an industy for convenience):
Let's say we are producing cotton candy. So I would like to learn how to make cotton candy, but I don't have any education or experience in this field, so I was able to get an assistant position at a small company that produces cotton candy. My position right now is just packaging, cleaning and assisting with various basic tasks. There are only 4 people I work directly with: 2 people who either have proper education or/and years of experience, so they are in charge of production, and there is this other guy (let's call him Dave) and I who were hired around the same time to assist with packaging and cleaning.
Dave has no experience too, and he only got hired 2 weeks before me. I'm the only woman working here, and the job is a bit manly, as we are running packaging machines, dealing with the jars, boxes and hoses, chemicals to clean etc. So I do agree that men are naturally better at these kind of jobs, but I'm working hard and learning. I was following Dave and listening to everything he said, for the first couple of weeks, because the job isn't that complicated, but you still need someone to show you how to start the machines, which buttons to push, which chemicals to clean etc. Now its been 3 months, and I'm capable of these tasks, but, I guess because of the dynamics we developed, he still acts like he is in charge, and becomes really rude and condescending if I try to argue, fight back or even questing something. Sometimes I really don't know something, and then I don't have a problem if he shows it to me, I ask questions etc, bit often he just seems to micromanage and tell me to do stuff that is very trivial, just because he decided to do it that way, and he also takes over anything new we are learning, so he knows how to do it, and I don't.
Since, it's only been 3 months, there are still things that both of us don't know about, so whenever any of the experience guys are trying to teach us, he would just grab stuff, and start doing it. Whenever I try to get involved he would say something like "just stop. Don't touch. Just wait, why can't you just wait? Just relax,OK? Omg, just relax". I'm not a shy person, but what am I supposed to do, push him? So in the end, he learns more stuff than me, and the other 2 guys who are experienced see how he is doing way better than me.
Then he keeps barking orders at me, when I'm doing basic every day tasks. I have learned all of them after 2-3 weeks of being there, and I am doing this, but for some reason, he thinks his duty is to tell me to do it anyway. For example, just randomly walking by and telling g my to connect this hose or push this button, that I was just about to do anyway.
On top of that, micromanagement about trivial things is the worst. Sometimes I think he is on a power trip and just decided he wants to do things certain way, when it doesn't even matter, so he interrupts what I'm doing and tells me to do things differently. Things like, where I'm even putting the product cause a bunch of issues. I was by myself, and I have asked one of the guys in charge where should I put the boxes, he told me it doesn't matter between a couple of spots. So I started stacking them in one of the spots. Then Dave shows up, becomes super rude about why am I putting them there, and they should go to this different spot. I told him, that inwas told it doesn't matter, he just rolled his eyes and moved everything to a different spot.
The incident that inspired me to write this, when I got really fed up, as just about putting stickers on the packaging. We have a machine that does it, but there was a problem, so we had to run it at a very low speed. So I actually just had to stand there and wait with nothing to do. One of the supervisors told me that we don't have enough stickers, and there are a few more we'll have to put manually. So I decided to start doing that while waiting. Dave saw that and told me to stop doing this. I asked him why, because I was told we don't have enough, so we'll put some manually, so why not do it now when I don't have anything else to do. He just kept telling me to stop doing that, and how I should stop asking why why why all the time, and what am I, a child?
So I'm just looking for suggestions how can I get out or this "relationship" and put him in his place. I'm also thinking if talking to someone in charge is a good idea or not. Its not a big company with hr or anything like that, and I'm a bit worried as being the only woman, people might think I'm just causing drama. Aside this issue, the whole culture is very relaxed and easy going, so I'm not sure if unwanted to start causing issues. My probation should be done in a few days. I have lost my job during the covid lockdowns, and I've been struggling to find something for a while, so kind of afraid to lose it
As a male engineer who has studied optimization, I commend you on seeing clear ways to maximize output. The suggestions you provided based on observations are agreeable and should be supported by management. I have seen this conflict many times in my career. Here is my suggestion.
Step 1 - try to put out the fire locally. Don't go behind your coworker's back. Going straight to HR usually doesn't help things - it often just makes it worse.
* Explain the rationale of activities you thought would increase production and work output that would not only help you but also the team as a whole (including him).
* Point out disagreements and conflicts that (in my opinion) could easily be resolved with clarification.
The strategy here is "iterate and clarify". A classic example is the scene in the TV crime drama "The People vs OJ". In one scene, Alan Dershowitz (a Harvard-trained lawyer) introduces Barry Scheck, a progressive lawyer who specializes in forensic evidence such as DNA (new at the time - early to mid 1990s). Scheck is drilled by the firy Robert Shapiro who initially dismisses the "DNA angle" of the defense's case. At that moment, Scheck could have gotten mad and stormed out of the room. But instead, he "iterates and clarifies" his strategy. Scheck calmly explains that his knowledge of DNA can help to get that forensic evidence thrown out of court or rejected due to the tainted process of contamination done by the LA crime lab. Shapiro then calms down immediately and ultimately comes to respect the DNA analysis done by Scheck. The situation is similar in your case - clarify your optimization calmly and respectfully with the co-worker.
Step 2 - If step 1 fails, then evaluate potential escalation to management who should have some input. This would be like arbitration. You would present your case (with examples, evidence, team statements, etc.) against the other guy. Here is where your observations have to kick in. Do you think the management would be fair in step 2? Or do you suspect they are sexist and would "take the guy's side" just because he's a guy? Do they have issues working with women? Or, are you Democrat and they are Republican (or vice versa)? You have to be careful here.
Step 3A - From your analysis of step 3, if you feel confident of support and have heavy evidence and witnesses on your side, then you can escalate to management with the hope of resolution on your behalf. The other guy would likely be reprimanded or at least be told clearly to stop his "bullying".
Step 3B - If your analysis leaves you lacking in confidence of support then you either "grin and bear it" and keep working that way while not raising any complaints - just let things be. There are many workers who often wind up doing this just to get a check.
Step 3C - Find a new job and project internally within the company. This is common. I've done this.
Step 3D - Find a new job outside the company. I've done this too. Just don't expect the "grass to be greener" at a new job too. In some cases, it can be worse. As an older Generation X guy, I need to warn you of this reality - a new job may not make you happy either.
A lot of people just work in Step 3B mode and learn to appreciate life outside of work with hobbies, family, friends, etc. and just do their "8 hours" and leave it at that with a robotic, emotionlness grind of grudging adaptation. It's up to you.
I work in software engineering, and the classic example of a bully was Steve Jobs. I knew a guy who had worked with Steve in the mid 1980s at Apple. Steve was very toxic and verbally abused his employees. He would often humiliate or even fire them in meetings. It got to the point where workers would avoid getting into an elevator with him. But karma caught up with Jobs when he was fired in 1985 by the board. It's shown in modern films. Then he died of cancer. Steve was about as cold and toxic as a male manager could get. He was so cold that he wouldn't acknowledge the paternity of his daughter for some time despite paternity tests proving he was the father. He also would not acknowledge his biological father even though he ate at his restaurant in Silicon Valley. But Steve's coldness and toxic behavior caught up to him.
Since I am from Generation X, I can tell you that your coworker is at an age where health problems are likely. A lot of men in my generation let themselves go in middle age. Decades of bad eating and lifestyle can also catch up with diabetes, heart disease, stress, etc. I try to stay out of that by running half marathons and hiking here in AZ. But that is not routine for a lot of guys in my age group. The point is that he is facing retirement age. I am now a data scientist. The odds of him retiring soon are very high. Most seniors retire before 65 due to health reasons. There are exceptions - people who maintain healthy lifestyles. But odds are he is not one of them. Steve Jobs died of cancer before retirement age.
DISCLAIMER: I made a reference to a crime drama about defense lawyers for OJ Simpson from his case in 1994. I was simply alluding to how Scheck resolved a conflict with a toxic, angry lead lawyer (who was demoted). As with many people, I disagreed with the ultimate verdict. To me, OJ was guilty. But I also agreed with Scheck that the LA crime lab made too many mistakes in gathering forensic evidence. Even Mark Fuhrman himself agreed with that in subsequent interviews.
Last edited by grad_student200; 01-25-2024 at 01:44 PM..
I would ask the other two employees to help me learn the ropes.
I'd tell the other guy that he is a newbie himself, so he needs to back off or **** off. Most of the time you can probably tell him that you are doing as instructed, and you will continue to do so until a supervisor tells you different. Tell him to go complain to a supervisor. As mentioned above, where is your supervisor?
Tell straightly to that bossy guy's face: Stop being after my back constantly and being bossy. You are not my manager or anything. Stop telling me to do things your way, or to do this, do that. You have your way, I have mine. If I need help I will ask someone who is knowledgeable and experienced, not you. You are just as almost new as I am. Stop being bossy, or else I will report you.
When you have courage to stand up and speak up against the bossy, bullying coworkers, they will back off and never bother you again. Don't be afraid.
In addition to my post above, OP, I want to suggest that being a female working in the world of males, you need to be smart and strong. Don't talk with girly voice (deep, lower tone of voice is more powerful than high pitched voice. Practice), don't talk nonsense, don't talk about your personal life. Be meek on one hand, be tough on the other. Be lady-like and act manly. Actually, in the work world in general nowadays, both men and women don't like or respect girly, cute, gossiping workers.
In general, talk less, observe more, learn things fast, do your best. When work is slow, try to find things to do. Don't be lazy or join the lazy azzes. Believe in an honest day's work for an honest day's pay.
If you like your job, do whatever it takes to keep it. If you don’t like it, try to find a job somewhere else.
Definitely dispel yourself of the notion that men are better at your job because "the job is a bit manly, as we are running packaging machines, dealing with the jars, boxes and hoses, chemicals to clean etc."
Yes you will have to do things differently because you are a woman. Your male supervisors will automatically deem a male trainee as more capable and more experienced. You will have to show more competence and work harder, commit fewer mistakes, ask fewer questions than any man (this guy or any other). If you complain, you will be a troublemaker or a ******. This is true whether you are running packaging machines or a desktop computer. But you are not less capable of doing this job because you are a woman.
And disengage with this guy as much as possible. When you are working and he makes comments like 'just stop' or 'can't you just wait'--ask yourself: do you know what you are doing? If yes, continue. Does he have the authority to direct your work? If no, then continue what you are doing.
When he just starts 'grabbing stuff and doing it' and you try to join in--ask yourself: do you know what you are doing? Were you directed to do this work? Were you directed to work with him? If you don't know what you are doing and weren't given direction to do any such work, then step back and leave him to it. He can face the consequences if he does something wrong. Initiative is good but overstepping your job description/training is not.
If you have questions, ask your trainer/supervisor whenever possible. Only ask Dave if absolutely necessary. When necessary, keep the conversation as brief as possible. Remember he is a trainee himself. Even asking him could cause problems for you both, if you haven't been instructed to receive training from him.
No wonder why Dave is "directing" you. It sounds like you don't know how to do the job or be an adult woman.
This part of your screed- "he also takes over anything new we are learning, so he knows how to do it, and I don't." Part of being an adult is getting it done and not blaming others for your own shortcomings.
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