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I'm from a different state and not mormon. I have to say they don't push their religous views on you, but if you are not mormon believe me you won't be their best friend. They will be very nice and pleasant to you, but you won't be part of the "in crowd". I will have to say it's one of the nicest states I have ever lived/visited. The states is extremely moral and clean. Not like other cities where there is a strip club and dirty book shop on every corner. It's certainly nice enough, but find it very hard to make close friends with ones who are mormons.
Your conjecture may or may not be true, but I have to wonder: why would you "mormon hunt" for friends? I'd think that most of us are more comfortable and happier sharing friendship with those who share our values, customs, culture, etc. Don't good friends generally have something in common?
Contrary to popular belief, not everyone is a mormon around here. What's wrong with a friendship with such a person if he/she shares more in common with you? There is no "in crowd." There are only crowds who think they are the "in crowd." For any given person, the "in crowd" is going to be whoever he/she hangs with.
Personally, I'd have nothing against being friends with, say, a hindu per se... but it seems strange to me to be surprised or disappointed that the friendship never became as close as I'd like because of our differences. I wouldn't expect a really close friendship with someone with whom I have little in common.
"Little in common" - that's sort of narrow-minded. How about interest in gardening, reading a certain type of book, interest in going to movies or symphony concerts, or dining out or good child-rearing practices? There's lots to have in common besides religion and church activities. Granted, most faithful LDS have little left-over time, but they do make friends outside their family/ward circles.
I guess we'd have to pin down just how close a good friend or best friend is supposed to be. When I'm thinking best friend, I'm thinking someone who is practically a soul mate--someone who has many things in common with me and/or thinks much the same way that I do, and shares many of the same interests. As for other friends and casual friends, sure, that big stuff doesn't matter. If it's just someone I go skiing with on the odd weekend, it doesn't really come into play what sort of person she is as far as all of those "major life shaping" qualities. If it's just someone I know from work... etc, again, not that important to be on the same wave length. Those are just casual friends. But best friends are more than that to me, and just by default they are going to have to have a lot in common with me. That's what puts the "best" on the more general term "friends."
But, that's just me. We are all different. I just never see myself being best friends with someone whose core values, beliefs and attitudes are far different than mine. It doesn't really turn anyone into a good guy or bad guy; that's just how it works at least in my case. That being the case, it wouldn't surprise or disappoint me if a friendship based on the "little commonalities" (for instance, we both like to ski) didn't turn into a best-friends situation.
I have to chime in and agree with ChrisC. If my idea of a fun night is going out to dinner and having a couple of glasses of wine and then going to an R rated move, I'm not going to be able to share that with one of my colleagues who I consider to be a friend but who is a devout and practicing Mormon. In addition, the things we talk about with our closest friends are usually things about our families, especially our children, that involve life choices. I would have a hard time talking to the above mentioned friend about her concern over her daughter dating a non-Mormon boy. It would genuinely concern her, but she'd have a hard time sharing her concern openly with me because of our religious differences. So there are things between us that would make a "best friends" kind of relationship pretty difficult. But I still number her among my friends, as I know she does with me. There are a lot of things we have in common and a lot of deep discussions we've had. But we both openly acknowledge that we won't be calling each other on the weekends. My "best friend" (excluding my husband) is my sister, which probably wouldn't surprise anyone. But my other dear friends all have lifestyle choices indistinguishable from mine. Now I'm waiting for my "best friend" to make some smart aleck reply on this thread.
I moved to SLC from Portland, and I've found the experience to be difficult at times. I don't have any acute complaints with individual LDS people, and in fact, I have great relationships with many in my neighborhood/work environment. I actively share notes/tips with fellow students who are LDS, and I pick up mail and run errands for LDS neighbors when they are out of town. We babysit one another's children as well.
The problem is that, at times, I feel like an ex-pat living in a slightly different country. Looking at the history of this state, Utah became a part of the U.S. by force, and I feel that even now that it is part of the Union in a formal sense. Here are just some of the things I live with on a daily basis:
1) LDS-Interest stories on ABC, CBS, NBC and FOX local news affiliates. I've lived in many states, and the local news has always remained culturally-neutral. Here, it is normal for LDS-interest stories to find their way into the media in the most casual of ways.
2) Strange Liquor Laws: I'm sure you've heard enough about this one. I hate having to go to the liquor store for a bottle of wine or an "alchopop", as they're referred to here. Stores like Trader Joe's (my favorite) avoid opening locations in Utah because alchohol sales is an important part of their business.
3) Angry Non-Mormons, Ex-Mormons, Jack-Mormons: Sometimes, the worst part of living in Utah is dealing with non and/or former Mormons. Many of these people carry a large chip on their shoulder, and complain about every little church/state infraction, awkward confrontation or cultural norm they have been victim to over their lifetime. The longer these people have lived in Utah, the more stories they have. All I can say is, if you go out to lunch or throw a party, invite some active LDS or you'll find your get-together devolving into an anti-Mormon ***** session very quickly.
4) Suburbanism: Since the LDS are the overwhelming majority in this state, and since they (generally) share the ideal of having a large family and a spacious home in the burbs... culturally-interesting, historical, dense, walkable neighborhoods are not common, and those that still exist are not well-respected or lovingly maintained. While cities like Portland, Seattle and Denver have invested heavily in revitalizing urban areas- giving them new character and life- metro SLC has continued to build cookie-cutter sprawl. Moving here, I was surprised at the poor condition of downtown SLC... even the Temple Square area. Old buildings have been readily replaced by parking lots. Large glass towers offer no ground-level retail. Main street is not the shopping/entertainment destination is should be. Rather, it is littered with unkempt empty storefronts, "missing-teeth" and "Darth Vader" buildings. Ugly and uninviting. Mormons seem to go downtown only to visit Temple Square itself (lots of wedding pictures being taken there). Hopefully, new investments in the City Creek Center and public transit will help, but they are far behind other cities!
There are countless other things that make me feel like I am set apart, and no longer living in the "real" United States. In July, it might be how people turn out for Pioneer Day (basically an LDS celebration) more enthusiastically than they do the Fourth of July. Sometimes, it's the LDS Living billboards along the highway, or the BYU ads in the lightrail trains. It could be the presence of Seagull or Deseret Books in every shopping center, or the fact that the Mormon's have their "own" major newspaper. It's those things, and a hundred others, that make me feel like an ex-pat.
As every ex- pat knows- even when they enjoy their new, chosen culture- it can be difficult to be on the outside, never really belonging... and it can make you severely homesick!
Susan, at the outset I'll say that I have often pounced on people who I think are just "negative nellies" who live here. I don't consider you a "negative nelly" though. On the contrary, I think you pose some legitimate criticisms about living in Utah. I'll go over them with you and tell you what I think.
Quote:
1) LDS-Interest stories on ABC, CBS, NBC and FOX local news affiliates. I've lived in many states, and the local news has always remained culturally-neutral. Here, it is normal for LDS-interest stories to find their way into the media in the most casual of ways.
I know exactly what you mean here. I frequently see the local channels do this. I think its done to try and stimulate viewership. The local t.v. stations aren't dumb. They realize upwards of 60% of their viewing audience is LDS. I'll never forget an experience a few years ago when I was taking a college professor I knew out to lunch one day and I had KSL radio on. An ad came on for Deseret Book and pretty soon the announcer was talking about the "Urim and Thummin". I knew exactly what he meant, but my guest was just dumbfounded and amazed to the point where I turned off the radio. At that moment, I was reminded how unique the religious culture can be in Utah.
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2) Strange Liquor Laws: I'm sure you've heard enough about this one. I hate having to go to the liquor store for a bottle of wine or an "alchopop", as they're referred to here. Stores like Trader Joe's (my favorite) avoid opening locations in Utah because alchohol sales is an important part of their business.
Alot of non-LDS people do complain here about the liquor laws and it can get tiresome. Many of us support these laws because we feel its lead to a very low incidence of drunk driving and alcohol related problems here in Utah. Nevertheless, I do think it goes overboard sometimes. For example, I think every restaurant ought to be able to obtain a license to serve alcohol to customers who are eating there. There are limits on the number of licenses that can be issued. I think the consumption of alcohol in this setting is less risky than in some others. Also, there is a fairness element. A restaurant that can't serve alcohol is at a disadvantage compared to ones who can.
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3) Angry Non-Mormons, Ex-Mormons, Jack-Mormons: Sometimes, the worst part of living in Utah is dealing with non and/or former Mormons. Many of these people carry a large chip on their shoulder, and complain about every little church/state infraction, awkward confrontation or cultural norm they have been victim to over their lifetime. The longer these people have lived in Utah, the more stories they have. All I can say is, if you go out to lunch or throw a party, invite some active LDS or you'll find your get-together devolving into an anti-Mormon ***** session very quickly.
You are right on target here. It strikes me that there is a great amount of pent-up anger among some non-LDS people who live in Utah. It manifests itself in different ways. I first experienced it as a child, when a child of another religion slammed a door on my fingers while some of us were playing. I have seen other groups of non-LDS people all acting like living in Utah is the most awful experience of their life and they can't wait until the day that they can leave. It has always struck me that there is not much dialogue in Utah between the groups. There really isn't a specific place they can go to discuss their differences. One of the most difficult times I have found is when the Legislature goes into session. Typically, you have bills introduced by some legislators that have very strong religious overtones to them and they get much attention in the media. What is not understood is that many Mormons, like myself, actually take offense at this too and would like to kick the sponsors of these bills out of the Legislature.
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4) Suburbanism: Since the LDS are the overwhelming majority in this state, and since they (generally) share the ideal of having a large family and a spacious home in the burbs... culturally-interesting, historical, dense, walkable neighborhoods are not common, and those that still exist are not well-respected or lovingly maintained. While cities like Portland, Seattle and Denver have invested heavily in revitalizing urban areas- giving them new character and life- metro SLC has continued to build cookie-cutter sprawl. Moving here, I was surprised at the poor condition of downtown SLC... even the Temple Square area. Old buildings have been readily replaced by parking lots. Large glass towers offer no ground-level retail. Main street is not the shopping/entertainment destination is should be. Rather, it is littered with unkempt empty storefronts, "missing-teeth" and "Darth Vader" buildings. Ugly and uninviting. Mormons seem to go downtown only to visit Temple Square itself (lots of wedding pictures being taken there). Hopefully, new investments in the City Creek Center and public transit will help, but they are far behind other cities!
Very true, but I think when they finish renovating the Salt Lake City downtown in a few years, you'll be pleasantly surprised. I think its going to be a very nice area with lots shops and stores in close proximity to one another. Utah may lag behind other places in the country simply because other places have more money. Per capita income is quite low in Utah. Despite all our bragging, we have never had (probably never will have) the business and industrial base that places like Portland, Seattle, or San Francisco have. So, we make do with what we have. I have traveled to 45 states in this country. Few states compare with the low crime and overall cleanliness of Utah.
Thank you for your honest and fair-minded criticisms. Too many people here don't want to hear any criticism of Utah at all. In reality, there is much we could do to improve this state--just as every place can be improved. The only thing I wish you had added to your list was the major problem of air pollution and inversions on the Wasatch Front. It scares me to death that this gets worse every year and I've never heard anyone suggest a real plan that would at least keep it from getting worse.
Location: God's Gift to Mankind for flying anything
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
The only thing I wish you had added to your list was the major problem of air pollution and inversions on the Wasatch Front. It scares me to death that this gets worse every year and I've never heard anyone suggest a real plan that would at least keep it from getting worse.
Could it be that nobody actually *knows* what to really do ???
Yes there might be one solution and that is to stop ALL activity in the winter.
By *ALL*, I mean *ALL*.
We are speaking here of a phenomenon that is a result of a situation of how the city is built and where it is located.
You just can not completely stop any activity, but you could reduce activity.
The *problem* here is that what ever activity should be stopped,
also stops all other activities which are somewhat vital to the way this particular location makes it work.
In short, an inversion is OK, it is a NATURAL phenomenon, even *OK* for your health,
IF and WHEN there was not the amount of pollution there was.
I could go on and on, but nothing will change for *this* location (A bustling city in a valley),
unless we would learn how the change the weather ... ?
Keep in mind that the amount of pollution is there ALL year long, you just notice it more due to an inversion.
So in the end, you live with it, and endure those times when it gets bad for ones health.
The same with all the other situations mentioned above, which you commented on and with which I totally agree on.
The hardest thing to change in this life is how people live.
Just take a look at one-self. I tried that and I just fail miserably to change for the better, each and every time ...
It worked before, so I just keep doing it. Sad, but true.
Nuff sed, because the pollution awareness here has nothing to do with the influence of mormons to non-mormons.
It would be there, even if all of us were devil worshippers.
I'm from rural New Mexico, and it was somewhat of a shock. I don't think that I've been able to see the stars once since moving here, and the air can be foul at times.
The LDS influence hasn't really bothered me... not like the religious nuts of some of the other places I've lived (Harry Potter book burning in Alamogordo, NM, anyone?)
Culturally, I've come to accept that I don't fit in anywhere, and I don't seem to "fit in less" here than anywhere else that I've lived.
At this point, I'm afraid we'll just have to live with the inversion. It's a natural phenomenon. The several million people bottled up in it simply add their byproducts to what would otherwise be just still, trapped air. I'd doubt it was a big deal when the mormons settled the area. But, when you have several million people living in a "bottle" and doing their thing... well, what's to be done? Tell them to move to Phoenix for the winter so they don't have to cry about the "cold" winter?
Winter: noun \ˈwin-tər\ 1: the colder half of the year. 2: the thing we are FRIGGIN not having in Utah this year... as of yet
Rain???? All night on Dec 19??? WTH? Give. Me. A. Break.
Okay, sorry... had to vent. And cry about the lack of winter.
Last edited by SouthernBelleInUtah; 12-19-2010 at 12:41 PM..
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