Scottish, Irish and Welsh accents: native accents of English or not? (living in, catholics)

[Trimac20]

Would you say the accents of English spoken in Scotland, Ireland and Wales are 'native' English accents, meaning more or less arising out of a native form of English, or rather, 'foreign' accents, as in, the English language being imposed upon a population speaking a foreign language, hence the substrate of that language influencing the way they speak English?

For instance, a French English accent is 'foreign' or 'ESL' accent, whereas a Cockney, RP, American or Australian accent is 'native' in that it is derived from the English spoken in England or a subsequent English-speaking society.

Of course I know it's probably meaningless to give a yes/no answer, but I think it's interesting to discuss to what degree these three accents are 'native' or not. I think the most 'native' would easily be Scottish: I would actually argue it IS a native accent, since Scots is similar enough to English to be considered a dialect, and English has been known in Scotland almost as long as it has in England. I've heard Scottish is one of the most conservative dialects of English.

On the other hand, Ireland was mostly Gaelic speaking until about 1600, so the accent probably has significant Gaelic/Irish features. Wales was, until even more recently, mostly Welsh speaking, with the exception of Pembrokeshire. In Ireland only the area of Dublin was majority English speaking in the 17th century. Welsh seems the most 'foreign sounding' to my ears, and quite unlike Irish or English. It sounds almost Indian at times.

[Drover]

A foreign accent is one affected by a first language other than English. Since English is the de facto native language of Scotland/Ireland/Wales, they are not "foreign" accents.

I can't imagine what you're hearing that a Welsh accent sounds remotely like an Indian one.

[Jezer]

Ooh Goody!

Another thread on accents!

Just when we were starting to miss them.

[Mac15]

Well I would say it differs for each country. Scotland more native english and wales less. But for ireland i would say no the english that is spoken in ireland is quite different due to the unative populace. The english here is native because we have been influenced by gb.

[Trimac20]

Originally Posted by owenc

Well I would say it differs for each country. Scotland more native english and wales less. But for ireland i would say no the english that is spoken in ireland is quite different due to the unative populace. The english here is native because we have been influenced by gb.

To my hears the Irish accent has very superficial similarities to some English and Scottish dialects, but if it's mostly based on Gaelic substrate it's interesting how different it is to Welsh. It has a tonal quality but isn't as sing-songy as Welsh. The same down-up inflection is typical of English accents like Geordie, Yorkshire and most obviously Liverpool, which was influenced a lot by the Irish later on.

[Mac15]

Originally Posted by Trimac20

To my hears the Irish accent has very superficial similarities to some English and Scottish dialects, but if it's mostly based on Gaelic substrate it's interesting how different it is to Welsh. It has a tonal quality but isn't as sing-songy as Welsh. The same down-up inflection is typical of English accents like Geordie, Yorkshire and most obviously Liverpool, which was influenced a lot by the Irish later on.

Well I don't know. But up until the 1900s there were still vast expanses of Southern Ireland that spoke Irish as a native language. Obviously the accents in those remote parts are a result of the Irish language. It depends were you go but around here we have a very Scottish sounding accent. I do feel that the Extreme western parts of Ireland are a different world to the South-east of England for example. I have yet to visit these places but they look very different to even here. They speak Irish native down there.

[Trimac20]

Originally Posted by owenc

Well I don't know. But up until the 1900s there were still vast expanses of Southern Ireland that spoke Irish as a native language. Obviously the accents in those remote parts are a result of the Irish language. It depends were you go but around here we have a very Scottish sounding accent. I do feel that the Extreme western parts of Ireland are a different world to the South-east of England for example. I have yet to visit these places but they look very different to even here. They speak Irish native down there.

That's right, Ireland itself has a ton of linguistic diversity, both within Irish and the English dialects. Kerry or something is completely different from Dublin, which is again completely different from Northern Ireland or Donegal. I'd say the southwestern counties would be less influenced by English from England or Scottish.

The Northern Irish accent still sounds more Irish to me, but somewhat Scottish. Maybe like 3/4 Irish and 1/4 Scottish. Do Protestants tend to have a different/more Scottish accent in N.I. compared to Catholics?

[TommyTicker]

No I wouldnt. The celts have their own accents which come from their own native language. They just happen to speak english. Now, let me ask you; do you reckon that english people who learn to speak irish maintain there english accent as a native form of irish ??? Makes no sense really does it?

[Mac15]

Originally Posted by Trimac20

That's right, Ireland itself has a ton of linguistic diversity, both within Irish and the English dialects. Kerry or something is completely different from Dublin, which is again completely different from Northern Ireland or Donegal. I'd say the southwestern counties would be less influenced by English from England or Scottish.

The Northern Irish accent still sounds more Irish to me, but somewhat Scottish. Maybe like 3/4 Irish and 1/4 Scottish. Do Protestants tend to have a different/more Scottish accent in N.I. compared to Catholics?

Well in general there is the Northern Ireland variety which is mid-ulster english/Ulster-Scots. Generally that is a mix up of Irish words, scottish words and english words. Although there seem to be more Scottish words than Irish. There are a few areas like Newry and Fermanagh were there is a dialect called 'Southern Hiberno English' and there they speak with a dialect that sounds Southern/Northern Irish.

Then we have the Southern Dialects which are called Hiberno-English. Which to me is totally different to the Northern Irish dialect.

Q2). It depends were you live. In Ulster-Scots areas like Ballymena everybody has the same accent. But in places like Belfast there is a split, East Belfast and West Belfast. Generally to me there is a pattern, but if a protestant is living in a catholic area they will have the same accent and if a catholic is living in an ulster-scots area they will have a Ulster-scots accent. Some protestants pronounce certain words and letters different to Catholics. To me as a native if I was not told and I listened to someone I could easily identify their religion just by listening to them.

[Mouldy Old Schmo]

Are there different accents among the Welsh? The most famous Welshmen I've heard speak are Tom Jones and Richard Burton, but I don't know enough about the accent(s) to recognize one. I can recognize a Scottish or Irish accent fairly well.