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The open and semi-open block design are prone to head gasket problems. But the old Subaru motors (close-deck design) were modified sometime in the 90's, from a close-deck design to the open and semi-open deck. So, don't believe for a moment that the 2009 and 2010 models won't have head gasket failures. However, Subaru takes care of the problem under the warranty, and sometimes even when out of warranty.
If you buy any Subaru automobile, also buy the extended warranty. And you don't have to buy it from the dealer that sells you the car, since the extended warranty can be purchased by any Subaru dealer in the USA. My dealer in Alaska wanted over $1,200 for the extended warranty when I bough a 2009 Forester, but I refused the offer and bought it straight from the company at the NJ headquarters (paid around $800.00).
All Subaru models are quite popular in Alaska. They are reliable and offer excellent traction controls on ice or slippery roads. I traded my 2009 Forester for a Toyota Rav 4 V6 4x4, not because I didn't want the Forester, but for my wife to drive it. To her the Forester "feels" like a larger automobile than the Rav 4, and she didn't want to drive it She loves her new Rav 4, so I am happy with that.
Now, these are the some of the problems with the 2009 Forester:
a. The seats are uncomfortable to most people, including my wife and I. On long drives, your back will suffer. The right front seat is too low.
b. It uses a little too much fuel for a 170HP motor, specially in the city. But does very well (around 27 MPG) on the highway. Combined mileage during the winter should be around 20 MPG, which should improve during the summer months. A little slow for passing on the highway, but once you are up to speed it will easily stay there as much as you want.
c. The open-deck block is a weak point to keep in mind. If you have a Subaru, inspect the block/head gaskets for signs of moisture (oil or antifreeze), and keep an eye open for any signs of overheating. If any of these are experienced, take it back to the dealer for inspection (Subaru is pretty good about this well known problem).
d. Don't know the reasons why, but the wheel bearings are another weak point with Subaru.
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The CV boots aren't a problem. All automobiles with CV boots have the potential for these to crack or fail, not just the Subaru ones.
Thank you for all that helpful information. I will look into buying the extended warranty from the headquarters instead of a dealer if I am interested in the 03 Forester.
By the way, I did an initial search to find out insurance rates for the vehicle, and it came in at $200 per every six months. I am doing a bit more research with regard to that as it seemed high for such a safe vehicle.
My experience with these cars is different than the above poster ...
Seating is a matter of individual preference. My wife prefers the seats in these cars to our BMW's and MB's, or our domestic trucks. She's got no problems driving 10-12 hours in these. Nor do I have back problems from driving all day in our Subaru's.
My wife is a little more conservative driving her wagon than I am driving my later model Outback. Still, she gets a composite 30 mpg (town and city) and as high as 32 mpg on the road. I get 25 to 27 mpg, composite to strictly road driving. I agree, one does pay a price in fuel economy for the benefit of having the AWD system, but it's worth it in our driving conditions for much of the year.
The open deck Subie motors have long had the head gasket issues addressed. I've got way too many friends with cars from the 1999 era and newer that have had ZERO problems with this issue. Even at that, one should put this in perspective to so many other brands of cars where head gaskets have been a serious issue for the last decade. When I replaced the head gaskets in my 1997 2.5 ltr Subie motor at 120,000 miles ... they were solid after that. I put another 100K miles on it, and have since sold it ... with no problems for me or the current owner who puts 500 miles per week on the car.
I do know why Subie's show up with wheel bearing problems ... it's not the car's fault. It's the result of ham-fisted ignorant mechanics who drive the axle stubs out of the hubs with a hammer when replacing the axles instead of using the correct puller. The hammer blows ding up the bearing races, which then fail in short order. Use the right tooling, and the bearings are not a problem/failure area. It's not uncommon to see these go 300,000 miles without any issue .... unless damaged by improper service techniques.
I figure on 120-150,000 miles service life for the CV joints in these cars on the front. At well under $100 for a new axle assembly and a half-hour to replace it, these is a modest consumable cost of operation for these cars. Even my local tire/auto service centers replace these for $99.99, installed with a guarantee .... cheap ... although they use quality Reman axles where I use brand new assemblies.
Thanks for the response. I am considering an 03 Forester and operating costs are fairly important to me. Based on your experiences with the Outback, do you think the Forester would have fairly low operating costs outside of routine maintenance? Thanks.
Thanks for the response. I am considering an 03 Forester and operating costs are fairly important to me. Based on your experiences with the Outback, do you think the Forester would have fairly low operating costs outside of routine maintenance? Thanks.
Yes. Drivetrain and driveline components are essentially the same units in the Forester and the Legacy series of cars. Accessory systems are the same components with slight differences at the most. Bodywork is the biggest change, and both series are pretty well put together.
Even routine maintenance is reasonably priced. Oil/Filter changes are routine consumables, tire wear is nominal, and you'll need to change the major fluids (trans and diff's) every 36,000 miles. Coolant should be flushed and refilled every couple of years, and for the whole 1 gallon of Subaru factory OEM coolant, I suggest you use that. Don't forget to add the additive pack that they want in the system, which you can buy from the dealer or in the aftermarket as the Peak brand of sealant/coolant additive. You'll need to do the major engine service of the timing belt/tensioner w/water pump replacement every 100,000 miles ... if you're a DIY'er, this is a modest afternoon's work at a mellow pace, not trying to set any speed records. The late models do not require a valve adjustment, so that chore is no longer part of this service. You'll change the anti-freeze at that time, install new accessory belts, and it's a good time to put in new spark plugs and the ignition wires. I change air and fuel filters on an "as needed" basis, and they can last quite some time, too. I replace the radiator cap every two years because the correct system pressure seems to help with the longevity and cooling of these motors.
To put these cars in perspective, my 2001 Outback has needed ... outside of the routine items I've mentioned, a battery, a couple of radiator hoses that seemed questionable, a couple of headlight bulbs, and normal consumables (brake pads once in the front, wiper blades, and one front axle) ... in 126,000 miles ... NOTHING ELSE. The only questionable item right now is the driver's seat switch is sometimes flaky in cold weather ... which is no big deal for me because I don't move the seat back and forth very frequently. This car was a typical acquisition for me ... it had 100,000 miles on it before I bought it with confidence for my use for the next 150,000 miles. I'm trying Mobil 1 oil for the first time in my cars with this one, and I can tell you that this car starts ... right now! ... in the coldest weather we've had last winter (-20F). I get heat in the passenger compartment within 1/2 mile of driving it, and the heated front windshield is a real benefit for getting the wiper blades to function in our freezing conditions.
The factory paint clear coat wasn't the best, so it's starting to fail in a few spots ... but keep in mind that I'm at 6,000' elevation so the UV is a lot more intense here than at sea level. The black out coating on the trim is failing for the same reason. If you take a lot of pride in your vehicle's appearance, you might say my car isn't pristine anymore and no detailing will correct the problems. Given the operating climate zone I'm in, it's not an issue ... and I've got other vehicles for vanity ... motorcycles, sailboats, and an airplane .... where appearances are important. But they don't go out in the winter storms and deal with the mud season, either, that my car does.
Yes. Drivetrain and driveline components are essentially the same units in the Forester and the Legacy series of cars. Accessory systems are the same components with slight differences at the most. Bodywork is the biggest change, and both series are pretty well put together.
Even routine maintenance is reasonably priced. Oil/Filter changes are routine consumables, tire wear is nominal, and you'll need to change the major fluids (trans and diff's) every 36,000 miles. Coolant should be flushed and refilled every couple of years, and for the whole 1 gallon of Subaru factory OEM coolant, I suggest you use that. Don't forget to add the additive pack that they want in the system, which you can buy from the dealer or in the aftermarket as the Peak brand of sealant/coolant additive. You'll need to do the major engine service of the timing belt/tensioner w/water pump replacement every 100,000 miles ... if you're a DIY'er, this is a modest afternoon's work at a mellow pace, not trying to set any speed records. The late models do not require a valve adjustment, so that chore is no longer part of this service. You'll change the anti-freeze at that time, install new accessory belts, and it's a good time to put in new spark plugs and the ignition wires. I change air and fuel filters on an "as needed" basis, and they can last quite some time, too. I replace the radiator cap every two years because the correct system pressure seems to help with the longevity and cooling of these motors.
To put these cars in perspective, my 2001 Outback has needed ... outside of the routine items I've mentioned, a battery, a couple of radiator hoses that seemed questionable, a couple of headlight bulbs, and normal consumables (brake pads once in the front, wiper blades, and one front axle) ... in 126,000 miles ... NOTHING ELSE. The only questionable item right now is the driver's seat switch is sometimes flaky in cold weather ... which is no big deal for me because I don't move the seat back and forth very frequently. This car was a typical acquisition for me ... it had 100,000 miles on it before I bought it with confidence for my use for the next 150,000 miles. I'm trying Mobil 1 oil for the first time in my cars with this one, and I can tell you that this car starts ... right now! ... in the coldest weather we've had last winter (-20F). I get heat in the passenger compartment within 1/2 mile of driving it, and the heated front windshield is a real benefit for getting the wiper blades to function in our freezing conditions.
The factory paint clear coat wasn't the best, so it's starting to fail in a few spots ... but keep in mind that I'm at 6,000' elevation so the UV is a lot more intense here than at sea level. The black out coating on the trim is failing for the same reason. If you take a lot of pride in your vehicle's appearance, you might say my car isn't pristine anymore and no detailing will correct the problems. Given the operating climate zone I'm in, it's not an issue ... and I've got other vehicles for vanity ... motorcycles, sailboats, and an airplane .... where appearances are important. But they don't go out in the winter storms and deal with the mud season, either, that my car does.
Thank you for that detailed response. I saved your notes regarding maintenance timelines. Would you also recommend getting the extended warranty from Subaru if buying a used Forester with 120,000 miles on the clock? Thanks
Thank you for that detailed response. I saved your notes regarding maintenance timelines. Would you also recommend getting the extended warranty from Subaru if buying a used Forester with 120,000 miles on the clock? Thanks
GS
In my experience ... as a shop owner, where folk were looking to their "extended warranty" bought in the aftermarket to fix catastrophic failures in their cars ... the policies rarely paid off, or took care of minor issues as a causation but not the subsequent expensive mechanical damage.
For example, if an oil pump failed ... and Subie had an issue years ago with the mounting screws of the oil pump loosening up and dumping all the oil out of the motor ... the policies would pay for the replacement oil pump/crankshaft seal/oil ... but not the engine damage from the oil loss as the customer drove the car down the road. In the scheme of things, the causation problem was a minor cost compared to the destroyed engine.
IMO, you'd be better off to take the car and it's service records to an independent shop specializing in Subies and pay them to do a pre-buy inspection of the car for you. Make it clear that you're not asking them for a judgement as to whether or not to buy the car, and do not disclose the possible purchase price to them .... but that you are asking for a condition report of the car so that you can make an informed decision about buying the car.
You need to know if there are obviously deferred maintenance items, service items needing immediate or soon to need repair/replacement, and if there's crash damage (and if it's been properly repaired in a workmanlike manner).
Even if you aren't a mechanic, there's a lot you can tell about a prospective purchase on a walk-around and a pre-buy test drive. Be sure to operate all the accessories. Look for obvious fluid leaks. See that the the car operates normally through all the gears, through all the throttle and engine RPM conditions, that the engine temp is normal, fluids appear clean, filters are clean, and so forth. Bounce the suspension, see if the shocks appear to be working properly. See if the car tracks straight down the road, and if the CV joints are quiet in tight turns at slow speed. Look at the tires for normal wear patterns, uniform wear across the treads ... and that there's adequate tread remaining.
You're looking at a 120,000 mile car. It's not going to be perfect. What you are seeking is a determination if it's fit to give you a remaining service life at a reasonable cost. You're beginning the search by looking at a car series that has a good track record for durability and reasonable costs.
So even a car that isn't perfect has value. In some cases, it may be worth buying the car knowing that it needs some repairs and servicing that you'll have to spend money on. In some cases, it may be priced like a straight piece of merchandise but needs a lot of work ... these are the cars you, as a prudent buyer ... don't buy.
Price must address condition, not just cosmetics. A super clean car isn't necessarily a sound condition one .... and you don't drive paint or fancy stereo systems, you drive the mechanicals of the car.
In my experience ... as a shop owner, where folk were looking to their "extended warranty" bought in the aftermarket to fix catastrophic failures in their cars ... the policies rarely paid off, or took care of minor issues as a causation but not the subsequent expensive mechanical damage.
For example, if an oil pump failed ... and Subie had an issue years ago with the mounting screws of the oil pump loosening up and dumping all the oil out of the motor ... the policies would pay for the replacement oil pump/crankshaft seal/oil ... but not the engine damage from the oil loss as the customer drove the car down the road. In the scheme of things, the causation problem was a minor cost compared to the destroyed engine.
IMO, you'd be better off to take the car and it's service records to an independent shop specializing in Subies and pay them to do a pre-buy inspection of the car for you. Make it clear that you're not asking them for a judgement as to whether or not to buy the car, and do not disclose the possible purchase price to them .... but that you are asking for a condition report of the car so that you can make an informed decision about buying the car.
You need to know if there are obviously deferred maintenance items, service items needing immediate or soon to need repair/replacement, and if there's crash damage (and if it's been properly repaired in a workmanlike manner).
Even if you aren't a mechanic, there's a lot you can tell about a prospective purchase on a walk-around and a pre-buy test drive. Be sure to operate all the accessories. Look for obvious fluid leaks. See that the the car operates normally through all the gears, through all the throttle and engine RPM conditions, that the engine temp is normal, fluids appear clean, filters are clean, and so forth. Bounce the suspension, see if the shocks appear to be working properly. See if the car tracks straight down the road, and if the CV joints are quiet in tight turns at slow speed. Look at the tires for normal wear patterns, uniform wear across the treads ... and that there's adequate tread remaining.
You're looking at a 120,000 mile car. It's not going to be perfect. What you are seeking is a determination if it's fit to give you a remaining service life at a reasonable cost. You're beginning the search by looking at a car series that has a good track record for durability and reasonable costs.
So even a car that isn't perfect has value. In some cases, it may be worth buying the car knowing that it needs some repairs and servicing that you'll have to spend money on. In some cases, it may be priced like a straight piece of merchandise but needs a lot of work ... these are the cars you, as a prudent buyer ... don't buy.
Price must address condition, not just cosmetics. A super clean car isn't necessarily a sound condition one .... and you don't drive paint or fancy stereo systems, you drive the mechanicals of the car.
Thanks for the helpful info. I will know more once I get my trusted mechanic to look over the vehicle. I did do an inspection of the mechanicals, fluid levels, power accessories, operating temp, suspension, and steering before and after the test drive. At the surface, it seems like a decent vehicle with the normal wear and tear to the interior. Of course I will know more once the mechanic further inspects the vehicle. The vehicle does have a complete emissions test history, some repair history, and two owners (staying within the local area).
The independent shop pre-buy inspection also sounds like a good plan of action
Keep in mind that i wasn't speaking of extended warranty from other companies than the car manufacturer. In other words, a Subaru warranty should be purchased from Subaru. A toyota warranty should be purchased from Toyota.
However, you don't have to buy it from the dealer who has sold you the car, because the warranty is a national warranty that is honored throughout the US, and often Canada. It means that you can buy the same warranty from any official Subaru dealer in the US. I would never buy one of those "generic" warranties sold by companies that have nothing to do with Subaru.
By the way, the regular warranty is for three years or 36,000 miles. So if you are purchasing a car that already has over 36,000 miles or is over three years old, Subaru won't sell you an extended warranty. Such a car is "sold as is" (no warranty). If you want to buy an extended warranty from Subaru, then the car has to be within those 36,000 miles (for Subaru).
Not all car manufacturers offer the same types of initial warranties. For example, some US companies offer original warranties of 100,000 miles or five years. But that's not the case with Subaru-------
If you still buy a Subaru that is out of warranty, then I would advise that before you buy a mechanic friend of yours inspects all around the motor for head gasket leaks, and also for overheating indications. Even so I have heard of some people with such troubles, plus their cars out of warranty, and Subaru still going half-way to correct the problem. It could cost from $1,500 to perhaps $3,000 or more for such work depending on head/block condition. While the "36,00 miles or 3 years" warranty covers most of the car, the power train is covered for five years, I believe. You will have to check with Subaru on that. But lets say that you buy the car from a person, the head gasket fails, and the Subaru shop has no maintenance of the car. In this case it will be hard to prove that the engine failed, even after being properly maintained, because there is no record of maintenance.
When I traded my Forester for a used 2010 Toyota, the first thing I did was to go to the local Toyota dealer with the Rav 4 VIN number to see if there was a maintenance record. The service manager in Fairbanks is not only very professional, but the nicest young lady I can think of. She printed and inspected the record for me, and showed me that the previous owner had brought the car to the dealer for the warranty scheduled maintenance (it was up to date). So, I kept this data with me for reference.
Anytime you're looking at the purchase of an 8 yr old, 100K+ miles used car ... you're not going to be getting access to an extended warranty from a manufacturer. The warranty programs available are all aftermarket. IMO, none of them are worth the monies asked for them ... even though they may be highly touted by the promoters. I don't know anybody who came out ahead with this product except the sellers with their commission and the warranty company.
It's pretty common for a dealership to supply their in-network service records for a vehicle. They must keep those records for warranty and emissions compliance purposes. It's also a great sales tool for their services to a car owner. Many times, when I couldn't locate an owner or service records, I could obtain them from a dealer if the car had been serviced in network. The information is on file, even if the work was done at different dealerships. There may be customer goodwill accomodation on certain items, or recall services available for the vehicle, so it's always good to check with a dealership to see if these items apply to your car purchase ... even though the car is well past normal warranty periods.
When you're purchasing a used car, you're buying the remaining service life of the vehicle.
Thank you both for your help. I will know more about the vehicle in a week or two after I schedule the appointment with the mechanic, as well as taking the vehicle to the independent shop specializing in Subaru. How much would you say a pre-buy inspection would cost?
My experience with these cars is different than the above poster ...
Seating is a matter of individual preference. My wife prefers the seats in these cars to our BMW's and MB's, or our domestic trucks. She's got no problems driving 10-12 hours in these. Nor do I have back problems from driving all day in our Subaru's.
My wife is a little more conservative driving her wagon than I am driving my later model Outback. Still, she gets a composite 30 mpg (town and city) and as high as 32 mpg on the road. I get 25 to 27 mpg, composite to strictly road driving. I agree, one does pay a price in fuel economy for the benefit of having the AWD system, but it's worth it in our driving conditions for much of the year.
The open deck Subie motors have long had the head gasket issues addressed. I've got way too many friends with cars from the 1999 era and newer that have had ZERO problems with this issue. Even at that, one should put this in perspective to so many other brands of cars where head gaskets have been a serious issue for the last decade. When I replaced the head gaskets in my 1997 2.5 ltr Subie motor at 120,000 miles ... they were solid after that. I put another 100K miles on it, and have since sold it ... with no problems for me or the current owner who puts 500 miles per week on the car.
I do know why Subie's show up with wheel bearing problems ... it's not the car's fault. It's the result of ham-fisted ignorant mechanics who drive the axle stubs out of the hubs with a hammer when replacing the axles instead of using the correct puller. The hammer blows ding up the bearing races, which then fail in short order. Use the right tooling, and the bearings are not a problem/failure area. It's not uncommon to see these go 300,000 miles without any issue .... unless damaged by improper service techniques.
I figure on 120-150,000 miles service life for the CV joints in these cars on the front. At well under $100 for a new axle assembly and a half-hour to replace it, these is a modest consumable cost of operation for these cars. Even my local tire/auto service centers replace these for $99.99, installed with a guarantee .... cheap ... although they use quality Reman axles where I use brand new assemblies.
You will notice at least three 2008 motors with head-gasket problems in the forum above. And keep in mind that I am talking about one forum alone.
While in general not a lot of people post problems with their automobiles (just a few), it still gives you an indication of mechanical and other problems experienced by consumers in the specific forum. Notice that Subaru still hasn't corrected the problem with the head gaskets. All Subaru has done is to redesign the gaskets to make them stronger, and to use a special and very expensive Subaru antifreeze, not to change the engine block/head areas that are in contact with the gaskets.
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She loves her new Rav 4, so I am happy with that.
