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you guys don't seem to be from one of the worst states in America, I don't see a huge amount of complaining here, my mom recently moved out there, even. Yet if you check rankings, SC consistently ranks one of the worst states in America. Crime at a whopping #46, education at #44, health care at #34, infrastructure at #36 opportunity at #38 This is not a recent development in statistics either, but rather a trend that has existed for several years now, at least going back to 2019. The stats and the average perception (the view of those who live there, and those who don't) of SC don't match at all. whats up with that?
Excuses will be made left and right to downplay the rankings, but in reality its simply SC's lack of investments and generational poverty that has seen no mobility over the decades. A lack of investment in education, infrastructure, healthcare, etc. Whether it be for political reasons, spending aversion, past racism, geographic issues, whatever. That and SC is still not that urban, so these places carry more weight than would a state like Utah or Maryland.
The people here on CD, and most SClinians youd interact with probably live like normal Americans. My family is a normal middle class American family. The parts of the state that do so terribly and drag everything down almost feel far removed (not their faults). For instance the OBGYN coverage and infant mortality in those parts of the state is equal to an undeveloped country. 8 counties have no obgyn at all. Shameful, but there's no priority to fix it. Domestic violence is a big issue. Shameful, but not a priority to fix it.
And while SC ranks low, the United States still ranks very high, in human development. SC's human development index of 0.89 is bottom 10 in the US, but if SC were a country, it would rank #31 in the world. SC has the same HDI as the UAE, which is where Dubai and Abu Dhabi is, and I'm sure you've seen what Dubai look likes.
So SC being #44 in the US is not great relative to our country, but is still pretty great compared to most of the world. People educated in SC still go on to be engineers, doctors, lawyers, mathmeticians, etc. My cousin was educated at a SC school that would be considered mediocre, and she went on to graduate chemistry honors from Stanford. But that's not meant for everybody.
Crime is a different issue, moreso because its not too hard to fix, the investments to fix it just wont be put in. And SC is also pretty tax adverse and many people have a misguided view of it, which keeps spending down, which keeps investment down. Too many micro things are painted in a macro level by the politicians, and then the residents.
Regardless of rankings, which are arbitrary, it's not hard to live a good life in SC and find happiness. Go to Charleston, Greenville, Columbia, etc, you'll find many smiling faces, not people who look miserable. No state is a blanket. California is blanketed as a miserable high tax state, but if you make $40 in SC vs CA...you will have more take home pay in CA. And while California has high education and development, Charleston outranks places like Fresno, Bakersfield, even much of LA, on many metrics.
Lingering generational poverty in certain areas from the state’s being devastated in the Civil War explains a lot of it. The state keeps talking like it’s going to stop factoring out the poverty-stricken areas that bring its stats down and take steps to improve their quality of life, instead of trying to justify the state’s overall performance by saying yes, but if you factor out those areas we’re doing pretty well.
You got the generational poverty part, but it's not the Civil War's fault. More like Jim Crow era policies and Reconstruction rhetoric and misguided focus. The Civil War was 156 years ago, that's plenty of time to have dug up out of poverty. Atlanta was burned down by the Civil War and look at it now, full of wealth - and that's not old money wealth either.
You got the generational poverty part, but it's not the Civil War's fault. More like Jim Crow era policies and Reconstruction rhetoric and misguided focus. The Civil War was 156 years ago, that's plenty of time to have dug up out of poverty. Atlanta was burned down by the Civil War and look at it now, full of wealth - and that's not old money wealth either.
Lots of people in Atlanta are in generational poverty, and as a group they don’t help Atlanta’s statistics when it comes to being at the top of the good lists and staying off the bad ones. The Civil War left SC with a steep hill that we are indeed still climbing.
Lots of people in Atlanta are in generational poverty, and as a group they don’t help Atlanta’s statistics when it comes to being at the top of the good lists and staying off the bad ones. The Civil War left SC with a steep hill that we are indeed still climbing.
Generational poverty where in Atlanta exactly? You'll find that everywhere, but Atlanta is the most prosperous place in the southeast. I was just in Buckhead last week and it blows my mind every time just how much wealth Atlanta has concentrated, and again this isn't South of Broad old money. Atlanta's rise as an economic, diverse, white collar player with a great middle class backbone is how it got to where it is today. That and it was more progressive than most in a Jim Crow-era south. Nothing related to the Civil War.
I think types like Ben Tillman did more damage in the long run for South Carolina than the Civil War did. The Raleigh area was hit by the Civil War too, and look at the Triangle now. Apple just announced 3000 jobs paying an average of $187K coming to Raleigh. Why? Because North Carolina, for its quirks, invested in RTP and its universities majorly back in the day and in the generations that has turned the Triangle into a high powered educated magnet. It's all about investment. I wish SC had came up with something similar back in the day.
Every state has generational poverty, but not every state participated in the Civil War. That poverty still exists because of policies, laws, attitudes, that have been enacted in that state (and federally) that have prevented people from moving up. The vast majority of people born into poverty stay in poverty as adults, and it has nothing to do with wars.
Japan and Germany can survive World War II and turn into two of the most prosperous countries in the world, yet South Carolina, a state the size of Austria, can't get out of the shadow of the Civil War that happened 150 years ago? Japan almost didnt exist after 1945 and yet has the worlds 3rd largest economy, but the 1865 Civil War has SC shackled?
Generational poverty where in Atlanta exactly? You'll find that everywhere, but Atlanta is the most prosperous place in the southeast. I was just in Buckhead last week and it blows my mind every time just how much wealth Atlanta has concentrated, and again this isn't South of Broad old money. Atlanta's rise as an economic, diverse, white collar player with a great middle class backbone is how it got to where it is today. That and it was more progressive than most in a Jim Crow-era south. Nothing related to the Civil War.
I think types like Ben Tillman did more damage in the long run for South Carolina than the Civil War did. The Raleigh area was hit by the Civil War too, and look at the Triangle now. Apple just announced 3000 jobs paying an average of $187K coming to Raleigh. Why? Because North Carolina, for its quirks, invested in RTP and its universities majorly back in the day and in the generations that has turned the Triangle into a high powered educated magnet. It's all about investment. I wish SC had came up with something similar back in the day.
Every state has generational poverty, but not every state participated in the Civil War. That poverty still exists because of policies, laws, attitudes, that have been enacted in that state (and federally) that have prevented people from moving up. The vast majority of people born into poverty stay in poverty as adults, and it has nothing to do with wars.
Japan and Germany can survive World War II and turn into two of the most prosperous countries in the world, yet South Carolina, a state the size of Austria, can't get out of the shadow of the Civil War that happened 150 years ago? Japan almost didnt exist after 1945 and yet has the worlds 3rd largest economy, but the 1865 Civil War has SC shackled?
Germany and Japan were more or less given everything the US could give them in order to get them back in shape for the very simple fact that both nations were something of the frontier against Communism (Germany because of well.... the Iron Curtain, Japan because pretty much the entire rest of Asia went red) their success was seen as a cornerstone in proving Capitalism > Communism.
The south by contrast was beat, bloodied, and left to their own devices after Lincoln died because those that came after either lacked the political will or ability to ensure any real prosperity and the local politicians absolutely lacked the political will as evidenced by SC being agriculture and textile based until what the 70s or 80s? It's only in the last few decades starting with Michelin and then in the 90's BMW that SC really began to recover to something that could be considered our potential as a state. And this has continued with Boeing and even more recently Volvo..... (I'm sure Columbia has something but i'm not sure what)
In terms of comparisons.... in 1997 SC had a GDP of $150~ billion, that would be enough to put us as the 34th largest economy of the world (midway between Thailand and Greece), we've slipped since then, down to #49, just behind Romania. Part of this is likely due to rapid urbanization in many areas at least that's my assumption when i look at the GDP of us states and notice that Oregon ( a state with roughly 1mil fewer people) has a slightly higher GDP. I imagine a not-insignificant chunk of the reason for this is the centralization of population around Portland (the metro holds about half the states population though some of the metro population is in Washington so probably a bit less than half of the states population.)
Generational poverty where in Atlanta exactly? You'll find that everywhere, but Atlanta is the most prosperous place in the southeast. I was just in Buckhead last week and it blows my mind every time just how much wealth Atlanta has concentrated, and again this isn't South of Broad old money. Atlanta's rise as an economic, diverse, white collar player with a great middle class backbone is how it got to where it is today. That and it was more progressive than most in a Jim Crow-era south. Nothing related to the Civil War.
I think types like Ben Tillman did more damage in the long run for South Carolina than the Civil War did. The Raleigh area was hit by the Civil War too, and look at the Triangle now. Apple just announced 3000 jobs paying an average of $187K coming to Raleigh. Why? Because North Carolina, for its quirks, invested in RTP and its universities majorly back in the day and in the generations that has turned the Triangle into a high powered educated magnet. It's all about investment. I wish SC had came up with something similar back in the day.
Every state has generational poverty, but not every state participated in the Civil War. That poverty still exists because of policies, laws, attitudes, that have been enacted in that state (and federally) that have prevented people from moving up. The vast majority of people born into poverty stay in poverty as adults, and it has nothing to do with wars.
Japan and Germany can survive World War II and turn into two of the most prosperous countries in the world, yet South Carolina, a state the size of Austria, can't get out of the shadow of the Civil War that happened 150 years ago? Japan almost didnt exist after 1945 and yet has the worlds 3rd largest economy, but the 1865 Civil War has SC shackled?
Many of the problems the southeastern states still face began with the economic devastation the Confederate states faced in the aftermath of the Civil War. I wasn’t saying it’s the only reason we’re still where we are: almost always toward the top of the bad socioeconomic and demographic stats lists. On the history timeline, however, there’s no arguing the point.
Generational poverty where in Atlanta exactly? You'll find that everywhere, but Atlanta is the most prosperous place in the southeast. I was just in Buckhead last week and it blows my mind every time just how much wealth Atlanta has concentrated, and again this isn't South of Broad old money. Atlanta's rise as an economic, diverse, white collar player with a great middle class backbone is how it got to where it is today. That and it was more progressive than most in a Jim Crow-era south. Nothing related to the Civil War.
Literally anywhere south of downtown, and areas east of downtown. Sure, Buckhead is great, but more of Atlanta is poor and Black. Take a drive down MLK Jr Blvd NW next visit. Tell me about that economic engine.
Read the links and educate yourself about the realities of Atlanta. And yes, I have lived there.
Germany and Japan were more or less given everything the US could give them in order to get them back in shape for the very simple fact that both nations were something of the frontier against Communism (Germany because of well.... the Iron Curtain, Japan because pretty much the entire rest of Asia went red) their success was seen as a cornerstone in proving Capitalism > Communism.
And South Carolina, along with the rest of the south was given the federal government. But the government was/is seen as the enemy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledmonkey
The south by contrast was beat, bloodied, and left to their own devices after Lincoln died because those that came after either lacked the political will or ability to ensure any real prosperity and the local politicians absolutely lacked the political will as evidenced by SC being agriculture and textile based until what the 70s or 80s? It's only in the last few decades starting with Michelin and then in the 90's BMW that SC really began to recover to something that could be considered our potential as a state. And this has continued with Boeing and even more recently Volvo..... (I'm sure Columbia has something but i'm not sure what)
I mean I said this. Terrible 19th and 20th century leadership enacting policies and having no willpower to provide widespread prosperity is why SC still has the issues it has. I'm not going to blame the war when the people after the war still couldn't let it go and held the state back on purpose. Imagine if Ben Tillman had ran the state like an actual governor and senator rather than like a white surpemacist.
Imagine if SC back in the day had came up with something similar to RTP, had a vision for landing an airline hub, tried landing an auto manufacturer before the 90s, built tech infrastructure, or even invested in Clemson and Carolina like UVA and UNC, things could be different. SC may not have oil like TX, Asia like CA, or climate like FL, but it still had geographic advantages overall, especially compared to a state like Nebraska.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlestondata
Many of the problems the southeastern states still face began with the economic devastation the Confederate states faced in the aftermath of the Civil War. I wasn’t saying it’s the only reason we’re still where we are: almost always toward the top of the bad socioeconomic and demographic stats lists. On the history timeline, however, there’s no arguing the point.
South Carolina could've transformed its economy the same way other states did. It's not the Civil War's fault that SC has no Fortune 500 companies. How else would Tennessee get 10 of them. And SC had 17 Civil War battles, Tennessee had 41.
Sure you can say the Civil War is how it began, but terrible leadership is why it persisted, and terrible policies from that leadership is what created the modern poverty.
Literally anywhere south of downtown, and areas east of downtown. Sure, Buckhead is great, but more of Atlanta is poor and Black. Take a drive down MLK Jr Blvd NW next visit. Tell me about that economic engine.
Read the links and educate yourself about the realities of Atlanta. And yes, I have lived there.
I dont need your links or condescending attitude. I was talking about generational poverty from the war, not generational poverty at all. Those issues "east and south of downtown" are because of systemic policies that were put in the place in the 20th century that still carry over...generations later. Georgia's freeway building wiped out entire black neighborhoods and strangled others. Redlining existed, Jim Crow existed, voter suppression existed, education wasn't equal. Rural/urban divide existed. Income inequality exists everywhere. Miami has it just as bad and had nothing to do with the war.
People being consistently poor in Atlanta today, whether in the inner city or out in the sticks, has all to do with leadership that didn't have the best interest of everyone in mind, and I'm saying that in a polite way.
Atlanta along with DC are the the two most prosperous metros for African Americans in the country. AA's in Atlanta can live a great middle class and upper class life. What you see on MLK Blvd is no different than any other MLK Blvd in any other city. LA is an economic engine and still has Skid Row. NYC has the largest economy in the world and still has the Bronx. DC still has southeast. Chicago still has southside. Houston still has the wards. Dallas still has MLK and Malcom X. Miami still has Opa Locka. SF still has homeless pooping on the train. So what is your point.
And South Carolina, along with the rest of the south was given the federal government. But the government was/is seen as the enemy.
I mean I said this. Terrible 19th and 20th century leadership enacting policies and having no willpower to provide widespread prosperity is why SC still has the issues it has. I'm not going to blame the war when the people after the war still couldn't let it go and held the state back on purpose. Imagine if Ben Tillman had ran the state like an actual governor and senator rather than like a white surpemacist.
Imagine if SC back in the day had came up with something similar to RTP, had a vision for landing an airline hub, tried landing an auto manufacturer before the 90s, built tech infrastructure, or even invested in Clemson and Carolina like UVA and UNC, things could be different. SC may not have oil like TX, Asia like CA, or climate like FL, but it still had geographic advantages overall, especially compared to a state like Nebraska.
South Carolina could've transformed its economy the same way other states did. It's not the Civil War's fault that SC has no Fortune 500 companies. How else would Tennessee get 10 of them. And SC had 17 Civil War battles, Tennessee had 41.
Sure you can say the Civil War is how it began, but terrible leadership is why it persisted, and terrible policies from that leadership is what created the modern poverty.
South Carolina isn’t the former Confederate state still struggling to get into a higher tier on ‘good’ lists. The reparations argument isn’t without merit for large swaths of SC’s and the southeast’s population.
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This is not a recent development in statistics either, but rather a trend that has existed for several years now, at least going back to 2019. The stats and the average perception (the view of those who live there, and those who don't) of SC don't match at all. whats up with that?
