SLC Winter inversions.. Their affect on surrounding areas. (pollution, companies)

[ejisme]

Originally Posted by markg91359

I appreciate the fact you are trying to be helpful to this poster. However, the poster needs to be aware of the fact that if somehow he did find housing that was out of the inversion that every time he traveled to work or anywhere for that matter he would still be in it. I'm also imagining how expensive a house that high on the mountain and out of the inversion might be. It wouldn't be cheap. Does the poster have a housing budget of $800K to $1,000,000?

The simple fact is that the inversion is a problem that is slowly getting worse. There is no running from it really anywhere on the Wasatch Front. If you are going to move here its just an issue you had better be prepared to deal with.

With OP at 62 y/o and looking to downsize I was assuming he was retired or close to it, so daily commute wouldn't be much of an issue, but daily 2 mile hikes would be. Budget wasn't mentioned in the OP's messages. Many people have an $800K+ budget close to retirement. That's when we make the most.

[SWFL_Native]

Heber/Midway would be a fantastic location to move to.. You could make the commute to Utah county via the canyon

[jonwb]

Thanks... actually considering the Spanish Fork area now. Our budget is around 550k for a single family home.

[slomofo]

There's very few places that don't have inversion. I work in Park City and there's pretty much no inversion out there and I used to work in Lehi which had inversion just as bad as Salt Lake but periodically I would go to a data center in Eagle Mountain where there was no inversion at all. Park City and Eagle Mountain are the only two places I can think of that are remotely near the Wasatch front which don't have inversions.

[altajoe]

Originally Posted by slomofo

There's very few places that don't have inversion. I work in Park City and there's pretty much no inversion out there and I used to work in Lehi which had inversion just as bad as Salt Lake but periodically I would go to a data center in Eagle Mountain where there was no inversion at all. Park City and Eagle Mountain are the only two places I can think of that are remotely near the Wasatch front which don't have inversions.

Inversions are very rare in the Ogden Valley.

[ejisme]

Originally Posted by altajoe

Inversions are very rare in the Ogden Valley.

Same with the Weber canyon. Morgan, UT and the hills around are out of the inversion zone. Only 20 minutes out of Ogden and only a very few times a year the freeway has a snow issue through the canyon. Still, not in the Spanish Fork area where OP is looking now.

[markg91359]

Originally Posted by slomofo

There's very few places that don't have inversion. I work in Park City and there's pretty much no inversion out there and I used to work in Lehi which had inversion just as bad as Salt Lake but periodically I would go to a data center in Eagle Mountain where there was no inversion at all. Park City and Eagle Mountain are the only two places I can think of that are remotely near the Wasatch front which don't have inversions.

Originally Posted by altajoe

Inversions are very rare in the Ogden Valley.

Originally Posted by ejisme

Same with the Weber canyon. Morgan, UT and the hills around are out of the inversion zone. Only 20 minutes out of Ogden and only a very few times a year the freeway has a snow issue through the canyon. Still, not in the Spanish Fork area where OP is looking now.

Whether inversions or rare or not in a particular area it doesn't change the fact that to work, shop, go to the doctor, or go to the bank you'll probably have to leave your inversion-free nook and breath in the air that 90% of us have too.

Also, I suspect as time goes on more and more areas will be subject to inversions as the population grows.

There really is no escaping this. Anyone who wants to live along the Wasatch Front (where 85% of Utah's population lives) is going to have to deal with it. Its tantasyland or wishful thinking to pretend otherwise.

[moguldreamer]

Originally Posted by markg91359

Also, I suspect as time goes on more and more areas will be subject to inversions as the population grows.

I doubt it. Inversions of the thermal lapse rate a.k.a. "inversions" are phenomenon of atmospheric physics, not materially effected by population growth. Of course, the pollution trapped by the inversions grows with population, but not the inversions themselves.

The thermal lapse rate is the rate at which temperature decreases with increasing altitude in the Earth's atmosphere. Normally, this rate is around 6.5°C per 1000 meters (or 3.5°F per 1000 feet) for the lower atmosphere, but it can vary due to a number of factors such as humidity, wind, and atmospheric stability.

Inversions of the thermal lapse rate occur when the normal pattern of temperature decreasing with altitude is disrupted and temperature actually increases with altitude. There are two main types of inversions of the thermal lapse rate: radiation inversions and subsidence inversions.

Radiation inversions occur when the Earth's surface cools rapidly at night, causing the air in contact with it to also cool. The cooler air is denser and sinks, creating a stable layer of air near the ground that can trap pollutants and cause poor air quality. Above this layer, the temperature increases with altitude, creating an inversion of the thermal lapse rate.

Subsidence inversions occur when a large mass of air sinks in a particular area, usually due to high pressure. As the air sinks, it compresses and warms up, causing the temperature to increase with altitude. This can also trap pollutants and cause poor air quality.

To point out how independent inversions are of population density, let's go back to the 1500s. Spanish explorer Juan Rodríguez Cabrillo was the first European to visit the west coast of North America. In 1542, he rounded the tip of Long Beach, California to see what is now Los Angeles -- and yes, in 1542, Cabrillo discovered Smog. The indigenous people of LA called it "Valley of the Smokes."

On October 8, Cabrillo came to San Pedro Bay (the site of the modern Port of Los Angeles), which he named "Baya de los Fumos" (English: Smoke Bay).

[markg91359]

Originally Posted by moguldreamer

I doubt it. Inversions of the thermal lapse rate a.k.a. "inversions" are phenomenon of atmospheric physics, not materially effected by population growth. Of course, the pollution trapped by the inversions grows with population, but not the inversions themselves.

The thermal lapse rate is the rate at which temperature decreases with increasing altitude in the Earth's atmosphere. Normally, this rate is around 6.5°C per 1000 meters (or 3.5°F per 1000 feet) for the lower atmosphere, but it can vary due to a number of factors such as humidity, wind, and atmospheric stability.

Inversions of the thermal lapse rate occur when the normal pattern of temperature decreasing with altitude is disrupted and temperature actually increases with altitude. There are two main types of inversions of the thermal lapse rate: radiation inversions and subsidence inversions.

Radiation inversions occur when the Earth's surface cools rapidly at night, causing the air in contact with it to also cool. The cooler air is denser and sinks, creating a stable layer of air near the ground that can trap pollutants and cause poor air quality. Above this layer, the temperature increases with altitude, creating an inversion of the thermal lapse rate.

Subsidence inversions occur when a large mass of air sinks in a particular area, usually due to high pressure. As the air sinks, it compresses and warms up, causing the temperature to increase with altitude. This can also trap pollutants and cause poor air quality.

To point out how independent inversions are of population density, let's go back to the 1500s. Spanish explorer Juan Rodríguez Cabrillo was the first European to visit the west coast of North America. In 1542, he rounded the tip of Long Beach, California to see what is now Los Angeles -- and yes, in 1542, Cabrillo discovered Smog. The indigenous people of LA called it "Valley of the Smokes."

On October 8, Cabrillo came to San Pedro Bay (the site of the modern Port of Los Angeles), which he named "Baya de los Fumos" (English: Smoke Bay).

Would you agree that inversions in the Salt Lake Valley have gotten worse over time?

[moguldreamer]

Originally Posted by markg91359

Would you agree that inversions in the Salt Lake Valley have gotten worse over time?

I don't have personal experience -- I live up in Park City for ski season (for other readers, that's about 20-30 minutes east, on the other side of a high mountain pass called Parley's Pass, and the Salt Lake City air pollution doesn't go over this high mountain pass). If I recall correctly, you live in a northern suburb of Salt Lake City, so I'll defer to you as you have personal knowledge.

But when the common man says things like "inversions are getting worse" I suspect what they really mean is the air pollution from the inversions is getting worse -- and the air pollution is of course a function of human activity such as automobiles, light industry, heavy industry, wood-burning fireplaces to the extent they are still used, and the like.

An atmospheric physicist - in contrast to the common man - means something entirely different when they say "inversions are getting worse." The scientist would be referring to the number of degrees of temperature differential measured at various altitudes, which is a measure of the inversion of the thermal lapse rate. They also would refer to the duration of the inversion event, and the number of inversion events.

Some researchers opine that places with a ton of concrete & asphalt can have increased temperature differentials at varying altitudes during an inversion event, but there is no consensus on that. You can't test for it in the real world - at least not directly. In order to test, you'd have to have significant data regarding the characteristics of atmospheric temperature differentials prior to any human development, and then after human development (e.g., skyscrapers, parking structures, etc etc) and currently that data doesn't exist.

My personal takeaway is that if a location does not have significant inversion events today, it is unlikely to have significant inversion events in the future even if there is significant human activity.