Is this having it both ways? (salvation, Buddhists, America, Muslim)
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I think there’s been similar threads to this, just worded differently.
God turning a blind eye to what’s happening on earth does seem a bit blasé, especially when some Christian groups believe everything is predetermined.
I’ve probably got more of an issue with some of the monstrous acts in the OT, even if they are probably storytelling and not supported by any historical or scientific evidence anyway.
God saying that He’s a “jealous God” with respect to idolatry, then commands us not to covet in the same breath , does seem to reek of double standards too.
Its okay to be jealous over what belongs to you. And if God is the creator, everything and everyone would belong to Him. Now if true, we shouldn't see God as if He is some abusive husband or boyfriend. Or look at God as if He is a spoiled child not willing to share His toys. We aren't talking about any old Joe Shmoe. God would be worthy of such a position of honor.
This topic speaks to the question many have saying if God exists, why does He allow evil? (Seemingly why He does not do something about the evil going on in the world?) Yet when He judges evil, with the ultimate judgment being eternal, the same may have issues with His judgment. So these understandings on our part concerning God if He exists, it seems many have a problem with God not doing something, but also have a problem when He does something about the evil.
The whole belief in god as an ultimate creator and judge is rife with contradiction and of course insists that the believer has it both ways.
Hitler obviously believe what he did was wrong, or he wouldn't have killed himself. If he knew what he did was wrong, just as we know what he did is wrong, then he is worthy of condemnation. Of course the eternal aspect of the judgment being valid, that comes down to the actual seriousness of the crimes. If we had the chance to put Hitler on trial, he would have been executed. To us, that is the ultimate punishment we can deliver. If we could do more than that, we would. God can do more, though He gets no pleasure in it.
Ultimately if Hitler knew what he did was wrong, then he had the free will choice to change his actions. Yet he freely chose to go all the way with his evil. He wasn't a slave to physics. He was just as capable of not doing what he did. This is what God will judge Hitler for.
Nobody knows, or will ever know, why Hitler decided to kill himself. He knew the war was lost, and could have simply decided that he preferred immediate death to being put on trial for war crimes, probably followed by execution. How did you come to the conclusion that Hitler knew what he did was wrong? I've bever seen anything he said or wrote to make me think he knew he was wrong.
You believe free will choice doesn't exist because you see all our actions are the ultimate result of physical processes going on in our brain, and the chemistry/physics of the universe.
And also, more basically, just because this entire concept of 'free will' doesn't make sense. It breaks down further and further the more you actually bother to logically analyze it.
For example. If you give me the choice of vanilla or chocolate ice cream, I'm going to choose vanilla, because I prefer vanilla. Did I choose to have this preference of the taste of vanilla? No, I didn't. Nor, did I choose any of the things about me (or my genetics/background/whatever) that caused me to have that preference.
If I consciously chose instead to pick chocolate, the one that I don't prefer the flavor of, then, again, I didn't choose to have the whatever character traits that caused me to weirdly pick that masochistic choice of the ice cream flavor that I didn't prefer.
Our choices and decisions we make, all come from who we are. We are not the ultimate, original cause of who we are. That is why we don't have free will, and why the concept doesn't even make sense.
Every time you cite a particular reasoning for why you made a particular choice, I could then ask you the question, "why?" And then we could keep going down layer after layer of reasons why, until eventually, inevitably, you don't know the reason why. Or it's because of something you inherited from your parents, which you had no choice in.
You didn't choose the various influences and factors that all caused you to be exactly the person you are at this moment, be that genetics, environment, circumstance, the nature of how your brain is wired, whatever. You didn't choose any of that.
Even if you have a 'soul' which magically causes your personality or whatever, then, again, you didn't choose that soul. Still the same logic problem.
Also, whenever you think you are making a conscious choice, your subconscious brain has already decided on that choice, before you were aware of it. They're actually even conducting some scientific brain studies now that are starting to show evidence of this. Thoughts and actions don't originate in our consciousness.
Our being within a causal physical universe (whether deterministic or not, each event that occurs would still be causal by the universe in some way), is only yet another reason why there's no actual free will. Even if we take that out, free will is still shaky ground nonsense anyway. So, yeah.
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I believe those processes are necessary to help us function in the physical world, but they do not determine how we live our lives. For instance, I could get a brain injury that causes me to think differently, even to the point I develop another personality compared to how I was previously. Some might say that would prove free will doesn't exist metaphysically. However, if I'm made aware of this change (through word of family and friends, through videos, photos, etc...), I can acknowledge the personality shift was due to the brain injury. I can try to graft in my previous ways into my new, or attempt return back to the old, or accept the new all together. All of that are choices I am free to make. The brain is just a tool, physics are just a tool.
Yeah, but still, see above. Everything about you that would cause you to do that, or to do whatever you do, is a result of being the person that you are, which ultimately you didn't choose to be.
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God certainly knows everything that can happen. Yet He's nudging us to where He wants us to go. We may reject His path, or accept.
More like, we will do exactly what we will do, at each successive moment in time. Because of the causation of each microscopic event that occurs (whether deterministic or not). Why wouldn't your all-knowing God know exactly what those causes are, leading to the next event, and the next cause?
There is no free will, as I laid out for all the reasons above, but even if somehow there was- then I'm going to 'free will' the things I choose, for whatever the reasons I choose it. So why wouldn't your all-knowing God know what those reasons are, that lead me to that choice?
If you want to believe in this God of yours that doesn't know things, and who can be surprised or approve/disapprove of the things I choose to do (and not have a full understanding of why I chose them), then, that's just another regular being you're describing. That's not a God at all. And that's definitely not a God that created the universe or that created me or the precise design of my brain, if he's clueless about the workings of those things, as you insist. So why would I, or anyone worship such a God as that?
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Let me add this in. The universe God created, and mankind, is not the same as we see it today. Nothing is operating now as God intended. So there was a self-destruct mechanism within the code of the original creation, written in Adam's disobedience. (God allowed this of course) So within the original creation, everything was very good, to God's taste. If Adam and Eve continued in obedience to God (if Satan continued in obedience), everything would have remained functioning the way God loved it. Adam's obedience and disobedience weren't set in stone. He was free to choose.
I still don't see what God was upset with, or how he could be disappointed. He created Adam exactly the way he wanted Adam to be. And so Adam was what he was, limitations and whatever. If God wanted a different Adam, then, he should have created a different Adam.
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Hitler obviously believe what he did was wrong, or he wouldn't have killed himself. If he knew what he did was wrong, just as we know what he did is wrong, then he is worthy of condemnation. Of course the eternal aspect of the judgment being valid, that comes down to the actual seriousness of the crimes. If we had the chance to put Hitler on trial, he would have been executed. To us, that is the ultimate punishment we can deliver. If we could do more than that, we would. God can do more, though He gets no pleasure in it.
Ultimately if Hitler knew what he did was wrong, then he had the free will choice to change his actions. Yet he freely chose to go all the way with his evil. He wasn't a slave to physics. He was just as capable of not doing what he did. This is what God will judge Hitler for.
Any free will that Hitler had, was ultimately an illusion. Hitler's 'self' was ultimately an illusion. Hitler was not the cause of who he was, and who he was, was the thing that actually authored his actions. He didn't choose genetics, environment, circumstances, or any of the factors and causes and influences thereof.
Again, I can see why man in a society would, and should, punish someone like Hitler. That part makes some sense. But what doesn't make sense at all, is why your all-knowing/all-powerful/all-benevolent/universe-creating/physics-creating/author of all existence, sky-dude that you believe exists, would punish Hitler, with the worst imaginable punishment, infinitely for all eternity.
Punish Hitler for what, exactly? God was ultimate cause of existence and this universe and planet and timeline, not Hitler. God was the ultimate cause of everything that went into Hitler's existence in the first place, and why he was all the various things he was and did all the things he did, for the reasons he did.
If God wants to whip people in lakes of fire for being naughty, then He should be the one getting whipped, since he would ultimately be the only being who actually deserves it.
Many would say if God exists, He is unjust for allowing evil to take place in this world. Yet when God judges evil, the same may say God's judgment is unjust. Is this not having it both ways?
The fact that you can't understand the difference between "before" and "after the fact" is a bit troubling.
Even in human law... Individuals are sometimes arrested, convicted and punished for failing to intervene when they had the opportunity to prevent wrong doing by others. These people don't get to play the "well, he had free will" card.
But just like you give Yahweh a pass for his own evil doing in the OT... you give him a pass for this stuff as well.
Jealousy comes from a place of insecurity and feeling threatened. It's understandable and not necessarily wrong but I would never go so far as to say it's "okay". It's one of the destructive emotions.
But then again you've already said your god isn't all-powerful so that provides a basis for insecurity, I suppose.
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Originally Posted by Heavenese
And if God is the creator, everything and everyone would belong to Him. Now if true, we shouldn't see God as if He is some abusive husband or boyfriend. Or look at God as if He is a spoiled child not willing to share His toys. We aren't talking about any old Joe Shmoe. God would be worthy of such a position of honor.
If I created, hypothetically, a sentient AI, it would not belong to me, but to itself, as all self-aware beings should. My role as creator should never be confused with a right to do whatever I want or to be mindlessly bowed and scraped to.
Not hypothetically, I did "create" a coupe of children and my daughter has a habit of not treating me appropriately as her father at times. Should I then smite her?
In both of the above scenarios I have given existence to someone but that has nothing to do with my rights or freedom to exercise them in relation to either being, or with some automatic deference to me.
I've observed a problem in some parents where they love the infant stage but as soon as the child develops a will (and a mouth) they find that threatening. They either lose interest in nurturing the child or try to get it to remain in some stage shy of independent adulthood. My first wife's mother for example was in denial that she was entering puberty and would not allow her to wear a bra or even tampons when her menses arrived. Hilarity ensued.
The whole belief in god as an ultimate creator and judge is rife with contradiction and of course insists that the believer has it both ways.
I understand you here. I don't agree there is actual contradiction, but a lack of understanding. Even when we look at the world around us, the principles governing the larger world doesn't match up with those governing the world the size of atoms. Yet we trust and have reason there is a law that governs all reality. Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity contradict each other, but they still have uses pointing to the overall truth.
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Originally Posted by mensaguy
Nobody knows, or will ever know, why Hitler decided to kill himself. He knew the war was lost, and could have simply decided that he preferred immediate death to being put on trial for war crimes, probably followed by execution. How did you come to the conclusion that Hitler knew what he did was wrong? I've never seen anything he said or wrote to make me think he knew he was wrong.
Well, we know he ordered his troops to fight to the death. He considered surrender as a disgraceful act, while fighting to the death was extremely honorable. If Hitler truly believed everything he did and was fighting for was the right thing, he should have followed his own words and go out in a blaze of glory. Instead he hid himself away, and ultimately killed himself for fear.
At the very least, his own words and feelings condemn him. If he believed his soldiers should fight to their last breath, he would have done the same. He could have hopped in a tank or an airplane, and fight until he was taken out. He could have armed himself with a rifle and fought along the remaining soldiers he had, but again, he did the opposite of what he said. In this we can say his actions showed he believe he was wrong.
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Originally Posted by primaltech
And also, more basically, just because this entire concept of 'free will' doesn't make sense. It breaks down further and further the more you actually bother to logically analyze it.
For example. If you give me the choice of vanilla or chocolate ice cream, I'm going to choose vanilla, because I prefer vanilla. Did I choose to have this preference of the taste of vanilla? No, I didn't. Nor, did I choose any of the things about me (or my genetics/background/whatever) that caused me to have that preference.
If I consciously chose instead to pick chocolate, the one that I don't prefer the flavor of, then, again, I didn't choose to have the whatever character traits that caused me to weirdly pick that masochistic choice of the ice cream flavor that I didn't prefer.
Our choices and decisions we make, all come from who we are. We are not the ultimate, original cause of who we are. That is why we don't have free will, and why the concept doesn't even make sense.
Every time you cite a particular reasoning for why you made a particular choice, I could then ask you the question, "why?" And then we could keep going down layer after layer of reasons why, until eventually, inevitably, you don't know the reason why. Or it's because of something you inherited from your parents, which you had no choice in.
You didn't choose the various influences and factors that all caused you to be exactly the person you are at this moment, be that genetics, environment, circumstance, the nature of how your brain is wired, whatever. You didn't choose any of that.
Even if you have a 'soul' which magically causes your personality or whatever, then, again, you didn't choose that soul. Still the same logic problem.
Also, whenever you think you are making a conscious choice, your subconscious brain has already decided on that choice, before you were aware of it. They're actually even conducting some scientific brain studies now that are starting to show evidence of this. Thoughts and actions don't originate in our consciousness.
Our being within a causal physical universe (whether deterministic or not, each event that occurs would still be causal by the universe in some way), is only yet another reason why there's no actual free will. Even if we take that out, free will is still shaky ground nonsense anyway. So, yeah.
Yeah, but still, see above. Everything about you that would cause you to do that, or to do whatever you do, is a result of being the person that you are, which ultimately you didn't choose to be.
More like, we will do exactly what we will do, at each successive moment in time. Because of the causation of each microscopic event that occurs (whether deterministic or not). Why wouldn't your all-knowing God know exactly what those causes are, leading to the next event, and the next cause?
There is no free will, as I laid out for all the reasons above, but even if somehow there was- then I'm going to 'free will' the things I choose, for whatever the reasons I choose it. So why wouldn't your all-knowing God know what those reasons are, that lead me to that choice?
If you want to believe in this God of yours that doesn't know things, and who can be surprised or approve/disapprove of the things I choose to do (and not have a full understanding of why I chose them), then, that's just another regular being you're describing. That's not a God at all. And that's definitely not a God that created the universe or that created me or the precise design of my brain, if he's clueless about the workings of those things, as you insist. So why would I, or anyone worship such a God as that?
I still don't see what God was upset with, or how he could be disappointed. He created Adam exactly the way he wanted Adam to be. And so Adam was what he was, limitations and whatever. If God wanted a different Adam, then, he should have created a different Adam.
Any free will that Hitler had, was ultimately an illusion. Hitler's 'self' was ultimately an illusion. Hitler was not the cause of who he was, and who he was, was the thing that actually authored his actions. He didn't choose genetics, environment, circumstances, or any of the factors and causes and influences thereof.
Again, I can see why man in a society would, and should, punish someone like Hitler. That part makes some sense. But what doesn't make sense at all, is why your all-knowing/all-powerful/all-benevolent/universe-creating/physics-creating/author of all existence, sky-dude that you believe exists, would punish Hitler, with the worst imaginable punishment, infinitely for all eternity.
Punish Hitler for what, exactly? God was ultimate cause of existence and this universe and planet and timeline, not Hitler. God was the ultimate cause of everything that went into Hitler's existence in the first place, and why he was all the various things he was and did all the things he did, for the reasons he did.
If God wants to whip people in lakes of fire for being naughty, then He should be the one getting whipped, since he would ultimately be the only being who actually deserves it.
Its true we didn't create or design ourselves. In that sense, free will doesn't exist. Yes, none of us chose to be who we are. The ultimate free will choice we are given, as presented by Yahweh, is the choice between life and death. I hear you concerning the science of our subconscious and the research that is going on. I even stated in another thread if scientists can predict to the tee a person's thoughts to corresponding action, that would be powerful evidence for everything originating from the brain. But all I believe scientists are seeing is the electrical activity of the brain. That electricity doesn't show what a person is thinking, only that a person is thinking, or just the overall activity of the brain.
So if scientists can predict actions from the subconscious activity of the brain, I might have to reconsider. As it stands right now, it would be assumption to say our perception of ourselves are illusions of the principles governing the universe. Again we didn't create ourselves, and there are many things we inherited that predisposes us, however we are still free to chose for ourselves a choice if given the knowledge. If you're aware of your love for vanilla ice cream and aware of your masochism for chocolate ice cream , you can choose which one to accept or deny. You wouldn't be free to choose if you automatically chose vanilla because of your love for it, or if you automatically chose chocolate because of your hatred for it. For me, no free will would mean automatic action, in spite of knowledge.
That takes us back to Hitler. Hitler knew what he was doing was wrong, or otherwise he wouldn't have tried to hide it during the 1936 olympics. All the Jim Crow-esque separation in Germany that was going on before the Olympics, was taken down when the world's eyes were focused on Berlin. If Hitler didn't have a problem with what he was doing, why take the signs down? Why not show the world the truth of his beliefs? Of course we know how Jesse Owens took it to him, and he wasn't the only one. All of that showed Hitler how he was wrong, and how he knew he was wrong. Hitler didn't truly believe what he was doing, but decided of his own choice to continue. This is what God would judge Hitler on. Its not God's fault Hitler decided to continue.
Yet ultimately going back to Adam and Eve, even if everything was based on the universe and it's properties, then Adam and Eve should have stayed obedient to God. The perfect universe should have stayed perfect. Adam had no parents before him who were predispose to rebellion to God. All predisposition was toward God's order. So if we consider all of that, and I know many don't actually believe this as history (that okay), if it were the case, the fact Adam and Eve fell shows they had an actual choice to fall. So that is the hypothesis concerning free will in the context Yahweh presents it. This is what we control, obedience to Him, or disobedience.
The fact that you can't understand the difference between "before" and "after the fact" is a bit troubling.
Even in human law... Individuals are sometimes arrested, convicted and punished for failing to intervene when they had the opportunity to prevent wrong doing by others. These people don't get to play the "well, he had free will" card.
But just like you give Yahweh a pass for his own evil doing in the OT... you give him a pass for this stuff as well.
It may come down to a matter of perspective. I believe God knows more than us. If He didn't intervene in certain human atrocities, I trust it was for a reason. Considering if He did intervene every time, none of the human population would exist at all. Because God is not creating humans apart from each other, all of us are here through other humans interacting.
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Originally Posted by mordant
Jealousy comes from a place of insecurity and feeling threatened. It's understandable and not necessarily wrong but I would never go so far as to say it's "okay". It's one of the destructive emotions.
But then again you've already said your god isn't all-powerful so that provides a basis for insecurity, I suppose.
If I created, hypothetically, a sentient AI, it would not belong to me, but to itself, as all self-aware beings should. My role as creator should never be confused with a right to do whatever I want or to be mindlessly bowed and scraped to.
Not hypothetically, I did "create" a coupe of children and my daughter has a habit of not treating me appropriately as her father at times. Should I then smite her?
In both of the above scenarios I have given existence to someone but that has nothing to do with my rights or freedom to exercise them in relation to either being, or with some automatic deference to me.
I've observed a problem in some parents where they love the infant stage but as soon as the child develops a will (and a mouth) they find that threatening. They either lose interest in nurturing the child or try to get it to remain in some stage shy of independent adulthood. My first wife's mother for example was in denial that she was entering puberty and would not allow her to wear a bra or even tampons when her menses arrived. Hilarity ensued.
I hear what you're saying. Though interesting, if you created an AI that was self aware, you would have desires for that AI. If the AI went on to accomplish wonderful feats, you would no doubt by happy and excited. Yet if the AI went on to try to kill and supplant you, you wouldn't be happy.
When it comes to jealousy, I can imagine a parent being jealous for their children. As you mention, having a parent that smoothers their children can be embarrassing for the child and could effect them moving into adulthood. Yet when it comes to God being our parent, we will never outgrow Him. There is no where we can move to that isn't His house. He's going to brood us for all eternity! Yet what if we are designed to worship? That it is a part of our being? God Himself wouldn't have a need for anything or anyone, but He certainly has desire. Out of His desire, He would have created us. Heehee, I guess you might say why give us a choice then to either do what He wants or not, if He created us for His own desires? The answer to that is the same. He desire we had that choice. He created us to be like Him, and He Himself have free will choice on a grander scale. So for those who decide to rebel against Him, they would be the AI who desired to supplant Him.
That takes us back to Hitler. Hitler knew what he was doing was wrong, or otherwise he wouldn't have tried to hide it during the 1936 olympics. All the Jim Crow-esque separation in Germany that was going on before the Olympics, was taken down when the world's eyes were focused on Berlin. If Hitler didn't have a problem with what he was doing, why take the signs down? Why not show the world the truth of his beliefs? Of course we know how Jesse Owens took it to him, and he wasn't the only one. All of that showed Hitler how he was wrong, and how he knew he was wrong. Hitler didn't truly believe what he was doing, but decided of his own choice to continue. This is what God would judge Hitler on. Its not God's fault Hitler decided to continue.
I'm a better person than God, according to you. I'm more enlightened than your God, apparently. Because I don't think Hitler, OJ Simpson, or anyone that's ever lived, deserves God's judgement for being what they were/are. Rather they deserve the same total empathy and total understanding from such a God (if one existed), that every human being ever would all equally deserve.
Hitler didn't choose his biology/genetics, his awful father, the era and the situation going on at that time and place with the Weimar republic, or anything else about his environment or circumstances. He didn't choose his beliefs (because no one does). When we break it down, he didn't actually choose his actions (because no one actually does, because there is no actual free will).
It's weird to think about, but ultimately, essentially the universe chose Hitler to commit those atrocities and gas 6 million Jews. There is no free will.
Humans punishing Hitler in a court of law (if he had not killed himself) would have been understandably necessary for deterrence of that behavior we abhor, in our human society.
But an omnipotent, existence-authoring God judging him and damning him, makes no logical or moral sense. Because that implies that Hitler could have been something other than what he was, which he could not have been. Just like I can only be what I am.
God judging, but God gave all judging to Jesus.
Acts 24:15 says there will be ( future tense) a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous (KJV just and unjust )
The wicked destroyed forever - Psalms 37:38; 92:7; 104:35; 145:40; Proverbs 2:22
So, we will have to wait for Resurrection Day ( meaning Jesus' 1,000 year day governing over Earth ) for the outcome.
Outcome for Hitler and others.
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, you can choose which one to accept or deny. You wouldn't be free to choose if you automatically chose vanilla because of your love for it, or if you automatically chose chocolate because of your hatred for it. For me, no free will would mean automatic action, in spite of knowledge.
