Wow my love, I really touched a nerve and for that I apologize. Anywho, before I leave this discussion I feel the need to help you understand what I am saying because your analogy is completely wrong about what you are assuming what I am trying to say.
Your bolded statement is wrong about me, I'm not saying everyone must accept my religion until we decide the laws of space. I'm saying we have to decide what the moon is first before we set up laws on the moon. That is a very big difference than what you are thinking. In all honesty, I think there shouldn't be any differences between Earth and Space Laws. We really don't need separate laws in space. The basics of vandalism, destruction of property, trespassing, murder, theft, should be the same as it is on Earth. Even though I didn't mention it, I believe policies are more important than law! This is what I have been preaching since the start of my participation on this issue. We need policies in place to make sure we are doing the right thing in space. Be careful of the environments we interact with, be careful with any life we encounter on alien worlds, don't exploit resources to the point of destroying an alien environment like we are doing on our own planet. Basic moral and common sense as well as decency while we humbly explore space is what I am concerned about. Even though it is presumed the moon has no life on it, we need to be careful with our policies, because the moon is the first steppingstone to achieving deep space exploration and if we so boldly assume we can do whatever we want on the moon, we will continue to be so arrogant to do whatever we want on alien worlds that may have life. Let's place ashes on the moon, let's detonate a hydrogen nuclear bomb on the moon to see what will happen. America and Russia were considering this before it was signed in a treaty of LAW not to use weapons in space.
What agenda is being forced by placing cremated remains on the moon? Placing cremated remains before policies or laws are created to allow or deny the right to place ashes on the moon. if someone places ashes on the moon before it is deemed lawful, they are forcing an agenda by saying "See! we placed ashes on the moon, and it didn't hurt anyone so it should be legal." That is an agenda for people that are pro cremation burial on the moon. The agenda for people who oppose cremation burials on the moon can force their agenda by removing the ashes from the moon and returning them to Earth and say "See, we removed the ashes from the moon, and it didn't hurt anyone so it should be legal for us to remove ashes when they offend us. Another group can have an agenda and say "we dug on a burial site and found valuable resources on the land, but no one was hurt, so it should be legal for us to dig up dead remains so we can retrieve valuable resources on the moon. Another group can say, "we dumped waste on the ground and oops it was on the burial site, but it didn't hurt anyone so that should be legal because we did it before any policies or laws were in place." Without laws, people can bury on the moon, remove remains from the moon, dump on the moon, or destroy cremated remains to retrieve resources they are mining. That's why we need laws to protect the sanctity of remains if it is legal to bury them on the moon, to prevent unlawful destruction, vandalism, removal from the site if it is legal to bury remains, and if it is not legal, we need to enforce the law to make sure no burial occurs. See, the problem with burying ashes on the moon, is that the private company does not own any part of the moon. So, they are assuming that the moon is a public place you can do whatever you want to with it so they are basically saying our agenda is to place ashes on the moon because it is a public place we can bury remains on. That may or not be the case, but they are placing an agenda by defining what the moon is before it is agreed on lawfully what it is.
you said this statement below that I want to address and will highlight in bold letters
That's fallacious, it's a false analogy. The act of the serial killer murdering is illegal and unethical. The serial killer's act of putting ash on the moon is not. That's two totally different things there.
The reason I compared a serial killer putting victims ashes on the moon was to prove a point to a person that said, "If the Navajo people did not know ashes were placed on the moon it must not be a big deal and they would be happy thinking no remains were placed on the moon even though someone snuck ashes on the moon without their knowledge" So I responded "what if a serial killer placed victims ashes on the moon without Navajo knowing about it? I guess that is okay because they snuck ashes on the moon and the Navajo never found out." My point was that sneaking anything without a person's knowledge is wrong. I could sneak some vitamins in some tea to help my friend get better or I could sneak some psychedelic drugs to see him act wacky and crazy, but it's okay because I snuck it in his tea without him knowing it, so as long as he doesn't know about it, that's okay, but it's not!
-------------------
You placed this statement:
What you said in bold is illogical. There's no law that forbids putting anything in outer space yet, therefore it's forbidden to put anything in outer space until there's a law that forbid putting anything in outer space. That's a contradiction.
That is not what I meant. What I was saying is that we shouldn't do anything in space until we have an agreed policy to be moral, just, and fair as we explore space. We need guidance to make sure what we are doing is not illegal. I go on a planet and zap someone because they said I was trespassing on their planet. I shot them cold blooded, they had no weapon, so in a legal sense I murdered them, but that is okay, because it is outside the jurisdiction of Earth so I can't be prosecuted on Earth because I am beyond their jurisdiction. At minimum we need to establish the laws of Earth should be applied to space as well. We are not doing that currently.
-------------------
You placed this statement:
Apparently, you don't understand the concept of having laws. Within the context of this discussion, laws are created to prevent us from doing certain acts. Laws aren't created to allow us to do certain acts. It's not illegal to walk on a public sidewalk, eat food at home, breathe, or for two gay people to be in a relationship with each other, therefore anyone can do any of these things without worrying about getting in trouble with the law. Are you against the act of two gay people being in a relationship with each other? Fundamental Christians think that it's wrong. So, does that mean that gays can't and/or shouldn't be in a relationship with each other until we make a law that says that it's legal? I don't understand why you can't understand this simple concept.
I had hope you would give me a little more credit than that but let's look at your analogy. The Earth has been defined as a place where society lives and interacts with other people. we have an understanding on Earth to act in a civilized way when disagreements occur, whether it is civil or criminal in nature. If no one objects to gay people, they should be able to have the same rights everyone else does. If someone objects to gays, we need laws to define if it is legal or not and if it is deemed legal, we need laws to protect the rights of gays not to be harmed, discriminated, or attacked in any way. It's called due process. That is what we have on Earth. We don't have due process on the Moon because we haven't identified what the moon is. The Navajo Nation is addressing their concerns on Earth by due process by legally expressing their concerns to the government. They are not sneaking ashes on the moon without authority. Private companies are attempting to do this. If the private companies or other religions think it is okay to place burial remains on the Earth that is totally fine, but they need due process before it is legal. Otherwise, I can go to the moon remove the ashes and place them back on Earth. if there is no law that says they can't place ashes on the moon, there is no law that says I can't remove those ashes and place them back on Earth. That is why we need laws to settle this dispute before anything is done. If Navajo said only Navajo people are allowed to be buried on the moon and no one else, does that make it right for them to place only Navajo remains on the moon? Absolutely not, they would be wrong to try until this dispute is settled lawfully.
-------------------
You placed this statement:
The entire earth is sacred to me. Please don't bury or leave any ashes of your remains on it. Thank you.
Thanks for proving my point, The Earth has laws that protect the right to bury your remains in certain areas. Commercial burial plots, Religious burial plots, Private burial plots, but there are limits where you can place your ashes in America. You can't pour your ashes on top of Abe Lincoln memorial statue that is illegal. So sorry, but if you want to place your ashes on top of good ole Abe Lincoln, you must have the law changed before you can legally do so, otherwise, you will be arrested for violating the law. The point is that the Earth already has rules, policies and laws of what you can and can't do with ashes, the moon does not, that is why we need to define what the moon is. without definition, the moon is a free for all to place ashes on it, to remove ashes from the moon, to dump chemical waste on ashes because it is cheaper to do so than move it. There is no understanding what the moon is in relation to the Earth. Without this understanding of moral, civil, and criminal expectations of the moon, you are encouraging chaos and disorder of an area we have access to.
--------------------
you placed this statement:
This is the simplest way that I can think of to explain this. Hopefully, after putting their bias aside, people will understand.
You have to put ashes on the moon. - Forcing you to do what I want whether you want to do it or not
You can put ashes on the moon if you want to, if you don't want to then you don't have to - Neutral, allowing you to choose what you want to do
You can't put ashes on the moon - Forcing you to do what I want whether you want to do it or not
unfortunately, that is not the problem. We don't need to address if someone gives you a choice or forces you to do something, what we need to worry about is what we are doing is right or wrong. Is it okay for the pilgrims to go to America to drive people off their land so they can mine, live, exploit it. What if the pilgrims just wanted to bury their dead in America, is that a problem? Well just having contact with the Natives caused their near extinction by diseases the Native population had no immunity from. I know the moon is considered to be a dead celestial body, but these are the questions we need to ask ourselves in case we do come into contact with living species to make sure we don't commit the same mistakes we made by invading and conquering lands and people resulting in destruction and murder. Individuals, private companies, can't make policies on their own without due process. Do I have to spell this out? Navajo Nation is not making policies on their own, they are addressing their concerns by due process of the law.
Well night912 it was fun discussing these issues with you, but it is clear that you haven't a clue what I am trying to relate to you and for that I am extremely sorry. I understand your concerns, and you make noble points, but the problem is that you're not looking at the big picture of what is at stake, and I'm not talking about ashes, but making sure we are doing the right things as we venture out into space. I am happy with everything I said, I was able to express my concerns and there is nothing left for me to discuss. Please feel free to continue this discussion, but don't address any concerns towards me because you are wasting your time, since this is the last time I will monitor this thread. Have a good life, a good weekend and enjoy life if you can, that is what I intend to do my love, take care of yourself and Goodbye!
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
