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No, many of us do not believe in your god at all. Some of us are of different religions (I am Buddhist). Some of us are atheists.
Again, you thought you had sort of trapped us into agreeing with your position. That's because YOU are not open-minded. You need to get out more.
This has nothing to do with our own beliefs or lack of belief. (Which is why I present this generically) This simply is about the rights of a creator.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungalove
There's a difference, however, in creating living creatures that think and reason and creating robots. If a Creator creates beings who can think and reason, then it must expect that they will use those abilities to question, argue, and even criticize. They may even criticize their Creator. That was the chance taken when those abilities were given, and the right to do so was given to the created ones as well.
We may have the ability to criticize, but even in this, we don't have the right to do so. For what is our argument? Just because we can reason on our own? The creator still has the right to do his desire. For if we create a robot that becomes self aware, do we still own it? Is it not still our creation? Yet I tell you the truth, we created the robot out of existing material. The material was borrowed heehee! In essence, I'm saying God has even more of a right over all existence, because by His power He created.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy
Following the logic presented in this thread by Heavenese, it is perfectly all right for a person to have a child and then kill the child, because, after all, a creator can do whatever it wants with anything it creates.
I can't imagine anyone agreeing with that, but it is what he says.
Ah, but we didn't create our children. They formed inside the mother as a result of cells coming together. Of course all of that is physical. According to my understanding, the child has a spirit, which would come directly from God. So the creator of the child is God.
Even when talking about my robot example, ultimately even the robot belongs to God because we created it from existing material. Even the very knowledge to build the robot comes from God. Ultimately, God owns everything, and He can rightly criticize us on anything if He wished.
I notice no one mention the other aspect I brought up, concerning the insects. We kill them all the time, and are not criticized for it. Which again as I said, for the most part we receive no criticism. There are those who would argue for insects' right to live. That we should place an insect on the outside of one's home, instead of killing them. Heehee, of course if we do remove the insect to the outside, they could end up dying just from the immediate shift of atmosphere. The best place for them may be inside our homes.
So what right do we have to take the insect's life? We didn't create the insect, we do not own the insect. Assuming it is harmless to us, the insect itself has a right to criticize us if it could. Yet most wouldn't care. Even from our moral standpoint, we wouldn't say a person who killed the insect is a murderer. If we feel this way about that, how much more right does our creator have to do as he wishes with his creation? Would you say it is not right for a person to kill a house spider?
The is about a creation criticizing it's creator. Its not about whether the creator can handle the questions or being indifferent to them, its about what right do you have to question him at all? Of course with my God, He sees us and cares for us. We can argue among ourselves to see if that is true. Yet ultimately if He (or I throw out any generic creator) created us, who can tell the creator they are wrong for creating what they made? That if He wanted to wipe the board clean and start over, who can tell Him He can't do what He wants to do with His creation? You are literally His property, you are breathing His air. If He wanted to take those things back, its within His right is it not? This is what I'm getting at, and it's more of a philosophical thought of reality.
If a god says it is wrong to hurt others because they have feelings, why would that god be exempt just because it created everything?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese
I certainly don't want to speak for you all, but I believe in your heart of hearts, you know this to be true. If I create a robot, I have the right to destroy the robot. You can't say I'm wrong to do so.
Robots do not have feelings. But if one could, would you then have the right to destroy it (or torture it for a long time)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese
Interestingly, to question me is different from criticizing. You can question why I might destroy, to understand my thinking. To say it is wrong for me to do so is a criticism, it is to say I'm at fault. So with all that in mind, I ask can you legitimately say God is wrong for doing what He wills with His creation? (I emphasize God in the sense of creator here.) I don't believe you can looking at it objectively. Did you create yourself, that you can say 'I don't belong to God and thus He has no right over me?' Assuming He created us, yes, we are God's property.
What if this god enjoys hurting it's creations. Would that be in order, just because it created it's victims?
If a god says it is wrong to hurt others because they have feelings, why would that god be exempt just because it created everything?
Robots do not have feelings. But if one could, would you then have the right to destroy it (or torture it for a long time)?
What if this god enjoys hurting it's creations. Would that be in order, just because it created it's victims?
Truthfully speaking, for the purposes of this discussion, the creator has every right to do what he wills to his creation. Even to torture his creation. Its all about ownership. That is what makes him exempt from rules he established, if he wished to be exempt.
If we torture each other, he could criticize us because we don't own each other. We could criticize each other for harming one another. Yet if he did it, he is within his right.
Truthfully speaking, for the purposes of this discussion, the creator has every right to do what he wills to his creation. Even to torture his creation. Its all about ownership. That is what makes him exempt from rules he established, if he wished to be exempt.
...
Then may you experience it...fully. Leave the rest of us out of it.
Truthfully speaking, for the purposes of this discussion, the creator has every right to do what he wills to his creation. Even to torture his creation. Its all about ownership. That is what makes him exempt from rules he established, if he wished to be exempt.
If we torture each other, he could criticize us because we don't own each other. We could criticize each other for harming one another. Yet if he did it, he is within his right.
If the creator tortured his creations, s/he would be a pretty lousy creator, morally speaking. It almost seems like slavery.
Truthfully speaking, for the purposes of this discussion, the creator has every right to do what he wills to his creation.
Perhaps you should have told us this premise in the OP, then we could have avoided wasting our time answering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese
Even to torture his creation. Its all about ownership. That is what makes him exempt from rules he established, if he wished to be exempt.
Why does ownership exempt him from the rules? You can not simply assert this, you need to explain why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese
If we torture each other, he could criticize us because we don't own each other. We could criticize each other for harming one another. Yet if he did it, he is within his right.
Since this is in the general forum and not the Christian or other forum, in the Jewish tradition, the direct relationship between a person and G-d is the key and part of that is the give and take and G-d enjoys arguments, thoughtful reasoning and questioning. It also is a key to Jewish humor.
In the song "If I were a rich man" from Fiddler on the Roof, Tevya starts off the song in the tradition of banter with G-d: "Dear Lord, you made many, many poor people, I realize, of course, it's no shame to be poor, but it's no great honor either. So what would have been so terrible if I had a small fortune...would it spoil some vast eternal plan, if I were a wealthy man?" And then at the end, Tevya steps in cow manure. Tevya was able to complain and then one might argue G-d gets in the last laugh.
Last edited by webster; 11-16-2023 at 10:30 AM..
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, of course if we do remove the insect to the outside, they could end up dying just from the immediate shift of atmosphere. The best place for them may be inside our homes.
