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By "as good a start" I take you to mean that heaven is the right of all from the get-go, by just accepting it as a free gift. As I pointed out, that's not a universal teaching within Christianity and your desire to ignore that or compartmentalize it into a separate isolated conversation as if it's not relevant is misplaced IMO.
Granting for the sake of argument that a fair reading of Christianity agrees with you (and I actually agree with you on that point -- it is just that too many Christians start to equivocate and move the goal posts once they have you reeled in as a convert) ... I am not offhand aware of other religions that (1) have an afterlife concept similar to heaven and (2) promote it up front as an enticement to join up. Religions where there's not a sequential afterlife (heaven) but rather a cyclic afterlife (reincarnation / rebirth) are difficult to compare because they are quite different. In general, cyclic afterlives are promoted as something that one achieves only after living countless lives and maybe not even then. And in the Buddhist conception, achieving Nirvana or whatever they call it, is not at all like the Christian concept of an endless pot luck dinner with dead relatives ... it is more like death really, as you are subsumed into some sort of oceanic universal consciousness and lose your identity because you're finally willing to let go of your cherished ego. For most Buddhists, if I understand correctly, you do not survive as anything recognizably "you", so the fact that your constituent parts continue forever is sort of meaningless. Apples and oranges. Such religionists don't live for some glorified or corrected / enhanced version of earthly life. They are not interested in an eventual positive, they just want to eliminate a negative (suffering) by whatever means necessary.
On the other hand maybe what appeals to some of those folks isn't the eventual Enlightenment so much as the notion that you will live other lives, even if not in heaven. Some people find that a comforting idea, though I personally am hard pressed to understand why. I find it horrifying, like a perverted version of Ground Hog Day but without even any memory of any lessons learned before.
So that leaves us with the Zorasters and Sikhs and others that I'm not so familiar with their afterlife concepts.
One thing we can conclude though is that other religions besides Christianity get by just fine without this boon you speak of ... they don't have heaven in the sense that you do, yet they are quite devoted to these other faiths. So maybe it's not the selling point you think it to be? IDK.
I would ask Buddhists and the others, how did life begin according to their beliefs? I guess the equivalent for them with us, is if we started out as part of the cosmic oneness, but somehow fell out of it and into the birth cycels. Do we have any Buddhists here? Y'all feel free to drop in and let me know how life started.
I would ask Buddhists and the others, how did life begin according to their beliefs? I guess the equivalent for them with us, is if we started out as part of the cosmic oneness, but somehow fell out of it and into the birth cycels. Do we have any Buddhists here? Y'all feel free to drop in and let me know how life started.
I would ask Buddhists and the others, how did life begin according to their beliefs? I guess the equivalent for them with us, is if we started out as part of the cosmic oneness, but somehow fell out of it and into the birth cycels. Do we have any Buddhists here? Y'all feel free to drop in and let me know how life started.
Yes. And my Buddhist answer would be that since we cannot provide evidence of how creation occurred, we shouldn't say we know. There are, however, silly answers in various Buddhist sects.
For reference, here's a Muslim stating that in his particular understanding of Islam, they do not, as Heavenese states all the Abrahamic faiths do, just guarantee you heaven up front. It is conditional upon obedience on the one hand and refraining from sin on the other. In this, he is similar to fundamentalist Christians.
Come to think of it, Judaism (the other Abrahamic faith) does not really approach it the way the other two do. The concept of a guarantee of heaven is meaningless to them, as they see heaven as not being a gated community, but rather has an open-door policy to the righteous of all faiths. The nature of the afterlife is not a fixed doctrine in Judaism and Jewish teaching has no definitive "official" answer to these questions; there is even a subset of Jews who see heaven as a temporary holding-place for the dead until they are resurrected on earth when the Messiah comes. In other words earth IS heaven, or at least, will be.
So I think it is not supportable to claim that an "up front" guarantee of heaven for simply believing is a characteristic of "the Abrahamic religions".
Yes. And my Buddhist answer would be that since we cannot provide evidence of how creation occurred, we shouldn't say we know. There are, however, silly answers in various Buddhist sects.
Give me the best story about creation from one of those sects. (And is it a written tradition?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
For reference, here's a Muslim stating that in his particular understanding of Islam, they do not, as Heavenese states all the Abrahamic faiths do, just guarantee you heaven up front. It is conditional upon obedience on the one hand and refraining from sin on the other. In this, he is similar to fundamentalist Christians.
Come to think of it, Judaism (the other Abrahamic faith) does not really approach it the way the other two do. The concept of a guarantee of heaven is meaningless to them, as they see heaven as not being a gated community, but rather has an open-door policy to the righteous of all faiths. The nature of the afterlife is not a fixed doctrine in Judaism and Jewish teaching has no definitive "official" answer to these questions; there is even a subset of Jews who see heaven as a temporary holding-place for the dead until they are resurrected on earth when the Messiah comes. In other words earth IS heaven, or at least, will be.
So I think it is not supportable to claim that an "up front" guarantee of heaven for simply believing is a characteristic of "the Abrahamic religions".
Of course this is a topic about starting points. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all have Adam and Eve as the starting points. (Though I'm not sure what Islam states concerning Adam and Eve, and the Garden of Eden as well. Perhaps someone can enlighten me there)
I want you to tell me. Does no one accept my challenge in the Abrahamic faith having the best starting point for humanity? Yall really going to let me get away with saying that? This is suppose to be a fun, friendly challenge. If no one accepts, then I am left to assume its true.
I want you to tell me. Does no one accept my challenge in the Abrahamic faith having the best starting point for humanity? Yall really going to let me get away with saying that? This is suppose to be a fun, friendly challenge. If no one accepts, then I am left to assume its true.
I am not going to present to you a concept that I don't believe in that is tied in to the unfortunate link that has developed between Buddhism and animism. I am not here for your entertainment.
And if you want to think that just because some of us do not want to play your dishonest games that that makes you right, then you're more foolish than I thought.
I am not going to present to you a concept that I don't believe in that is tied in to the unfortunate link that has developed between Buddhism and animism. I am not here for your entertainment.
And if you want to think that just because some of us do not want to play your dishonest games that that makes you right, then you're more foolish than I thought.
If you think I'm boasting about myself, I didn't create Judaism. I didn't create the story of Adam and Eve. If you believe I'm boasting or saying I'm right, then I'm boasting about somebody else's work. What's dishonest about this topic? Its an open and friendly challenge.
With that said, does anyone else wish to contribute to the topic?
If you think I'm boasting about myself, I didn't create Judaism. I didn't create the story of Adam and Eve. If you believe I'm boasting or saying I'm right, then I'm boasting about somebody else's work. What's dishonest about this topic? Its an open and friendly challenge.
With that said, does anyone else wish to contribute to the topic?
You have the mistaken impression that posters are here for entertainment. I'm not. Not at all, and I don't appreciate this game you play that ends up being you preaching/evangelizing/proselytizing.
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Does no one accept my challenge in the Abrahamic faith having the best starting point for humanity? Yall really going to let me get away with saying that? This is suppose to be a fun, friendly challenge. If no one accepts, then I am left to assume its true.
