Where the conflict really lies

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by phetaroi

Well, unfortunately, the "test of time" is a pretty nebulous concept, and many bad things have stood "the test of time".

excellent insight and great point

[elyn02]

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

if someone says there is no racism among their friends or family, then i don't believe it.
it may not be talked about or public or acknowledged.
but there is no way to know what is within each and every friend, and what is within each and every family member.


i also question that someone would make a point of even claiming such a thing.
to me it is far more realistic, and also more helpful in addressing the problem, to have the awareness, acknowledge its existence and why it is problematic, and seek to mitigate it. instead of glossing over it with oh there is none in "my friends" or "my family." when we are aware of something it can be addressed and hopefully improved. when its existence is flat out denied, there is no progress or improvement. it just goes underground.


it is redolent of those claims politicians make saying things like "oh in my country there is no homosexuality." it has that same lack of credibility and instead points to the glaring problem of making such a claim. denial doesn't make it go away. it just has an air of desperation and unwillingness and squeamishness in dealing with something that, well, exists.


so the statement made upthread about "racism is not something they want to develop" does not mean it is not present in their circle of family and friends. what is obvious in making such a statement, is that racism is not something they want to acknowledge exists in their circle of family and friends.

I recognize that there are concepts that my family failed to teach me mostly because they didn't know better. I realize that now after many decades. Before realizing that, I was pretty angry at them for the dysfunction in the family. But the one thing that I am proud of is that racism or any comments toeing the line were challenged pretty consistently. I see the same with my own friends. But an example of something that is not challenged within my groups is God. Only I challenge it privately and personally because nobody really says "It's in God's hands" for situations that clearly have earthly solutions so there is no reason for me to interject when God is mentioned.

What is a possible reason for the continuation of racism? Maybe it is something that has the potential to be in all of us much in the same way that belief in God is a human tendency. Racism is always challenged. That is something that I learned from my family and I am proud of it. And I am proud of having friends who also challenge it. Mentioning God in a conversation is challenged based on the context. That is something I had to learn on my own and now that I understand this, I get along with my family better.

[stephenMM]

No one needs to make peace w/ any religion, or w/ anything at all. Everyone is entitled to their viewpoint, and it's a valid personal viewpoint whether or not anyone else agrees w/ it or not. We have freedom of thought and freedom of speech. If people would understand this, there wouldn't be these posts that go on and on and on, because really, it's just a poster's viewpoint. Full stop. It's not a debate, that's extremely tedious and goes nowhere. Just a waste of time for all concerned.

[LearnMe]

Originally Posted by stephenMM

No one needs to make peace w/ any religion, or w/ anything at all. Everyone is entitled to their viewpoint, and it's a valid personal viewpoint whether or not anyone else agrees w/ it or not. We have freedom of thought and freedom of speech. If people would understand this, there wouldn't be these posts that go on and on and on, because really, it's just a poster's viewpoint. Full stop. It's not a debate, that's extremely tedious and goes nowhere. Just a waste of time for all concerned.

Are you trying to put an end to the discussion forums of C-D?!?

[mordant]

Originally Posted by elyn02

What is a possible reason for the continuation of racism?

Racism and its cousins exists because we evolved to look for potential threats in our environment and one potential threat is that presented by the "outsider" or "stranger", the person who is Not One of Us and therefore by default not to be trusted. Racism generally emphasizes physical differences like skin color or facial structure because they are the most easily and quickly recognizable hallmarks of the "other".

None of this is to justify racism but it is necessary to understand that it is latent in all of us to some degree or other and, as with logical fallacies we are prone to, we must work hard to identify it in ourselves and to root it out, and impose rational counters to it. This requires effort and commitment, as well as self-awareness and honesty.

Another factor in play is that our empathy tends to extent only to immediate family or tribal group. Our brains struggle to empathize with people we don't know. Hence the saying, "One man's death is a tragedy; a thousand people's death is a statistic". It is another failing of our cognitive equipment, and requires effort and discipline to correct.

While I don't think that prosperity and (relative) peace are inherently bad things, that produces other effects that we have to work against, lest we succumb to them, such as the lack of desire to invest in anything that requires effort and discipline. Although it's currently unraveling, as a society we had about a 60 year run following WW2 of unprecedented ease in which we could stand on the shoulders of giants (mostly while crapping on them) and not have to put much effort into maintaining it. Until, of course, our inattention caught up with us.

[LearnMe]

Originally Posted by mordant

Racism and its cousins exists because we evolved to look for potential threats in our environment and one potential threat is that presented by the "outsider" or "stranger", the person who is Not One of Us and therefore by default not to be trusted. Racism generally emphasizes physical differences like skin color or facial structure because they are the most easily and quickly recognizable hallmarks of the "other".

None of this is to justify racism but it is necessary to understand that it is latent in all of us to some degree or other and, as with logical fallacies we are prone to, we must work hard to identify it in ourselves and to root it out, and impose rational counters to it. This requires effort and commitment, as well as self-awareness and honesty.

Another factor in play is that our empathy tends to extent only to immediate family or tribal group. Our brains struggle to empathize with people we don't know. Hence the saying, "One man's death is a tragedy; a thousand people's death is a statistic". It is another failing of our cognitive equipment, and requires effort and discipline to correct.

While I don't think that prosperity and (relative) peace are inherently bad things, that produces other effects that we have to work against, lest we succumb to them, such as the lack of desire to invest in anything that requires effort and discipline. Although it's currently unraveling, as a society we had about a 60 year run following WW2 of unprecedented ease in which we could stand on the shoulders of giants (mostly while crapping on them) and not have to put much effort into maintaining it. Until, of course, our inattention caught up with us.

When it comes to racism and a good many other "challenges" we humans are forever having to contend with, I think the record is pretty clear we're making some significant progress. Even if at a snails pace...

That we "had about a 60 year run" sounds as if that progress is coming to a halt. I'm reminded how my late father always used to point out that the older generation always has a dim view about the next, and I've found this to be so typically true. Even as I recognize this dynamic about us humans as well, I too find myself feeling less optimistic about the future than I did when I wore a younger man's clothes. Then I get to talk to my 30-something kids and in-laws, and although they are not ignorant to the ongoing threats, they tend to be a little more optimistic about the possibilities at least some progress will continue.

For them and their kids, I sure hope so anyway. No harm in hoping or promoting those opportunities despite the odds in any case...

[elyn02]

Originally Posted by mordant

Racism and its cousins exists because we evolved to look for potential threats in our environment and one potential threat is that presented by the "outsider" or "stranger", the person who is Not One of Us and therefore by default not to be trusted. Racism generally emphasizes physical differences like skin color or facial structure because they are the most easily and quickly recognizable hallmarks of the "other".

None of this is to justify racism but it is necessary to understand that it is latent in all of us to some degree or other and, as with logical fallacies we are prone to, we must work hard to identify it in ourselves and to root it out, and impose rational counters to it. This requires effort and commitment, as well as self-awareness and honesty.

Another factor in play is that our empathy tends to extent only to immediate family or tribal group. Our brains struggle to empathize with people we don't know. Hence the saying, "One man's death is a tragedy; a thousand people's death is a statistic". It is another failing of our cognitive equipment, and requires effort and discipline to correct.

While I don't think that prosperity and (relative) peace are inherently bad things, that produces other effects that we have to work against, lest we succumb to them, such as the lack of desire to invest in anything that requires effort and discipline. Although it's currently unraveling, as a society we had about a 60 year run following WW2 of unprecedented ease in which we could stand on the shoulders of giants (mostly while crapping on them) and not have to put much effort into maintaining it. Until, of course, our inattention caught up with us.

Originally Posted by elyn02

Thank you for the compliment. I personally think that if anything has withstood the test of time, it was created based on observations and the desire to know more about it, which can lead to idealism.

Thanks, Mordant.

I'm glad that you recognize the possible drawbacks of prosperity and peace. While my post above intended to convey a positive tone with the phrase "desire to know more about it", it was challenged with the concept of racism which has "withstood the test of time." So that brings me to the third part of my post which is idealism and I should have known better that any attempts at idealism, even prosperity and peace, can have drawbacks.

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by O'Darby

The atheists on these forums spend an inordinate amount of time attacking Christianity – and not just Christianity but a cartoon caricature of the most dogmatic, literalist, fundamentalist species of Christianity as though it were the norm.

Atheists are forced and compelled to do that since you refuse to police your own and put them in their place.

Originally Posted by O'Darby

It’s very odd, as though Christianity were uniquely threatening to them and almost an obsession with them.

It is a threat to everyone, not just Atheists.

How quickly you forget that x-tians tortured and murdered people who refused to convert, tortured and murdered people who refused to believe, and tortured and murdered people for not believing exactly as pontificated from on high.

How quickly you forget that right here in America people were forced against their will to pay taxes to a church and if they refused to pay taxes they would be haled before an ecclesiastical court and have their property seized to pay the taxes and if they refuse to surrender their property the State came in and threw them in prison and seized their property.

Never mind the fact that no ecclesiastical court has jurisdiction anywhere on Earth much less the Universe.

And that was perfectly legal until Everson v. Board of Education (1947).

The fact that you don't have a problem with that and the fact that you refuse to police your own is justification to attack x-tians.

Originally Posted by O'Darby

I can’t imagine spending the same time and energy attacking atheism, let alone some cartoonish caricature of the so-called New Atheism that would make serious atheists cringe.

Atheists never murdered people for not believing.

Atheists never seized people's property for failing to pay taxes to Atheists and Atheists never made people pay taxes to them.

That's why x-tians can never have power. Never.

Originally Posted by O'Darby

One atheist tactic is to cite the existence of umpteen other religions, and more-than-umpteen varieties of Christianity, to suggest that claims of truth are obvious nonsense.

It is a legitimate claim that they are obvious nonsense.

You must accept Atheism because to reject Atheism but accept all other religions as legitimate is hypocritical.

Originally Posted by O'Darby

Another is to suggest that most theists don’t really believe what they say they believe but stumble into a religion for reasons of parental influence, cultural conditioning and social acceptance.

That's also a legitimate claim.

From its inception, it is the belief of Anabaptists that no one should participate in religion until they are 18 years old and can make the choice of their own free will.

But you? You pretend children will do nothing to obtain the approval and love of their parents.

Originally Posted by O'Darby

If Christianity were somehow irrefutably proved to be false, I could shift to Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or just Theism with no big problem.

Then you can convert to Sikhism to convince us.

There's no evidence Jesus died or was resurrected. In fact, all the textual evidence contradicts it and indicates Jesus was a member of an obscure radical Essene sect and he faked his death in an attempt to wrest power from the Pharisees and Sadducees and then fled the region when he realized he failed.

The claim is the gospels are the written word of Yahweh and yet Yahweh isn't even sure when his "only begotten son" died because 3 of them say Thursday and one says Friday.

Even worse, Yahweh isn't even sure where Jesus was or who he was with or what he was doing.

Obviously, you haven't studied the gospels and "study" does not mean read a passage and wonder what it means. Study means treating the gospels as depositions by witnesses in a criminal or civil trial and tearing them apart to find inconsistencies and contradictions.

And find them you will. By the 100s.

Jesus was just one christ out of a cast of 1,000s of christs. Cyrus the Christ was a christ.

The reason Jews reject Jesus is because the Hebrew texts allege to prophesize the coming of the messiah and Jesus failed every single prophetic test.

That's why Saul/Paul took his three-ring circus to the Greeks. The Greeks aren't Hebrews and they know nothing of the Hebrew texts and aren't aware of any of the alleged prophecies and so it was easy for Saul/Paul to con them.

Now you know why all the early x-tian churches were in Turkey and Greece which at that time was one in the same since Greece and Anatolia were inhabited by Greeks.

Yahweh isn't even sure of the genealogy of Jesus and gets it wrong. What kind of god-thing gets it wrong?

Doesn't Yahweh tell Jacob he's El Shaddai?

El Shaddai is the son of Enlil.

Ooops.

Of course, there's the Jerusalem thing. Don't Abram/Abraham and his half-sister wife Serai/Sarah go meet with the priest-governor of Jerusalem whose name is Melchizidek?

Melchizidek means the anointed of Mechizide who was a son of Ningishiddza who was a son of Enki who was half-brother to Enlil.

You remind me of the idiot scholars: "I don't understand."

They're all confused sitting around musing, "Corvus is associated with Hyra and Leo, and why is Sagittarius the gate-keeper? I don't understand. I'm so confused."

If they would only stop fawning over what they write and read what their scholar friends write they'd have the answer.

Don't the Sumerians say the deluge occurred in the Age of Leo? Yes. That was circa 14000 to 12000 BCE.

And the Sumerian word the Hebrews borrowed means deluge and not flood. The Sumerians have two words that mean flood but they didn't use them because it wasn't a flood it was a deluge, specifically a big freaking tsunami that sloshed around for 3-5 days and brought an abrupt end to the last Glacial Period.

Don't the Sumerians say this asteroid or comet that caused the deluge come from the southern skies, specifically to wit the constellation Hydra?

Yes.

Hydra. Leo. Anyone? Buehler?

Didn't Ziusurda send out a raven to look for dry land? Yes. In the Ugarit, Hurrian and Mitanni versions it's a dove. The Hebrews blended the raven and the dove together.

Corvus is the raven.

Hydra. Corvus. Leo. Anyone? Buehler?

The arrow of Sagittarius is pointing right at Hydra ostensibly to keep big space rocks from crashing into Earth and recking havoc like Enlil promised Ziusurda.

Hydra. Corvus. Leo. Sagittarius. Anyone? Buehler?

I'm so glad you researched the origins of your belief system.

The thing about Hinduism is the Day of the Brahmin is 4,320,000,000 years and the Night is of equal years and life can only exist in the Day of the Brahmin and it is extinguished at the start of the Night of Brahmin.

Seeing how Earth is 4,500,000,000 years old it seems we got a defective Brahmin or never had one in the first place and if there isn't want we can't exist so Hinduism is crap like x-tianity.

Then again, any religion like Hinduism or x-tianity that would impose a coerced social class system on people is crap.

Originally Posted by O'Darby

So, I believe the real conflict is between theism in all its permutations on the one hand and atheism on the other, not between Christianity on the one hand and atheism and 800 other species of theism on the other.

Well, you're wrong because the non-x-tian folks aren't trying to use the government to impose their belief system on the restivus.

Originally Posted by O'Darby

I believe the vast majority of humans have always been, are, and will always be theists for the very reasons Christianity suggests: humans have an innate, intuitive sense of the divine; the creation itself proclaims the glory of God; God makes himself known in providential ways in the lives of those humans with eyes to see and ears to hear; and theism simply explains the reality in which we live better than does atheism.

I would consider that a character flaw. You might want to ask yourself why you so desperately need to believe.

Humans do not have an intuitive sense of the divine. That was something forced upon them by goat-herders who didn't understand how things work.

More and more people are coming to realize that there are no gods and never were. They were conjured up by other humans to explain things they couldn't understand and the later co-opted into imposing dictatorships.

And that is the reason x-tians are fearful because they're losing the battle.