Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Good evidence and credible evidence?
If there WAS an evidence as per everyone’s satisfaction then, think about it - we wouldn’t have a choice but to believe in the existence of God.
If you are talking about Abrahamic god as described in the Bible - perfect being with long list of omni properties - then yes, I thought about it.
Here is what I think.
I would never ask for evidence for this type of god for the same reason I would never ask for evidence for stick with one end, or square circle, or married bachelor. It is pointless to ask for evidence about something that cannot exist in objective reality due to the fact that it is by definition logically impossible.
Yes, Abrahamic god is an incoherent concept invented by human brain and exists only as such.
For now, since you, apparently, like thinking, I will leave it up to you to think about it and, hopefully, find those contradictions that make this god nonsensical. If you don't want to think about it, that's OK too. Just let me know and I will elaborate.
That being said, I'm perfectly open for evidence for logically possible concepts of god such as prime mover, intelligent designer, etc.
If there WAS an evidence as per everyone’s satisfaction then, think about it - we wouldn’t have a choice but to believe in the existence of God.
And if this was the case, then there would be no point in giving us a life with no choice.
We would all just come to the world, believed in the existence of God without a choice, worshipped him, we would go thru the event of death, and then we would go to Heaven - all 8 billion of us - and all those who lived before us - and all those who will come after us.
Which then begs the question - what’s the point of life if we are all going to to Heaven anyway? Why send us to this world? Why not just create us and send us directly to Heaven? Why even create hell?
One of the religious aspect on having a life is that we are given a choice as we are told that that,
There is a red line that may lead to trouble - and there is a green line that may lead to comfort.
And we are free to choose which line we want to follow?
Is this true? Is this the only line of reasoning possible?
Your first point is the exact one I have often tried to make. If there was any good, credible, evidence a god exists, we'd all be believers. A fact that lots of believers seem unable to grasp or accept, but if we had such evidence, would we lose our ability to exercise free will?
Say for example we had good solid evidence a god exists, but no idea what this god had done in the way of creating the universe, or what this god had in mind by doing so, or this god's intentions with respect to all that has unfolded in the universe as it has. Including life on earth and us humans.
Would we not still have free will? To ponder those questions and do as we wish just as we do now?
All the rest of people's notions about such things are just that. People's notions. About red lines and green lines. Where they come from and where they lead. No more and no less. When it comes to what lines I choose to follow for comfort and the likes, I do what seems most likely to deliver me those comforts. When it comes to whether a god exists or not, comfort is not part of my calculus.
what any person considers to be "good evidence" or "reliable evidence" or "credible evidence"
is itself subjective.
it is an opinion, view, belief what a person deems to be "credible evidence"
and varies from person to person.
making it subjective
This is also not true or none of us would know what to believe about anything. Well "beyond a reasonable doubt." Obviously we can know what we do thanks to good reliable evidence that allows us to do so. Finally without question or debate. No one questions the earth revolves around the sun rather than the other way around for example. Not anymore. Right? No question or debate among reasonably intelligent adults anyway. Thanks to good, reliable and credible evidence.
Well you were quick to cite the portion that written way later.
I assumed you read up on all that was found regarding Jesus.
I'll have to go dig up the article I read on it. It has commentary by archeologists and historians.
Very good read.
The passage you're referring to is
3. "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross,[9] those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day;[10] as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."
The problem with this passage is that it appears to come out of nowhere and has nothing to do with what came before or what came afterward. It is obvious to historians who doubt its authenticity that the person doing the interpolation (most obvious suspect is Eusebius in the 4th century) was looking for the most convenient place to stick it and this was the best he could manage. Here is what comes right before #3:
2. "But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews[8] were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do. So he habited a great number of his soldiers in their habit, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them. So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition."
You can see Josephus is talking about how the Jews got pissed off at Pilate for bringing water into Jerusalem and started a sedition and Pilate kicked their butts. Now #4:
4. "About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder, and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome. I will now first take notice of the wicked attempt about the temple of Isis, and will then give an account of the Jewish affairs. There was at Rome a woman whose name was Paulina; one who, on account of the dignity of her ancestors, and by the regular conduct of a virtuous life, had a great reputation: she was also very rich; and although she was of a beautiful countenance, and in that flower of her age wherein women are the most gay, yet did she lead a life of great modesty. She was married to Saturninus, one that was every way answerable to her in an excellent character. Decius Mundus fell in love with this woman, who was a man very high in the equestrian order; and as she was of too great dignity to be caught by presents, and had already rejected them, though they had been sent in great abundance, he was still more inflamed with love to her, insomuch that he promised to give her two hundred thousand Attic drachmae for one night's lodging; and when this would not prevail upon her, and he was not able to bear this misfortune in his amours, he thought it the best way to famish himself to death for want of food, on account of Paulina's sad refusal; and he determined with himself to die after such a manner, and he went on with his purpose accordingly."
Notice that #4 flows directly from #2, talking about another calamity following the calamity of the water in Jerusalem and the sedition. Notice this business about Jesus and him being such a wise and wonderful prophet has no context with #2 and #4. It's just thrown in there by Eusebius to try to make it look like Josephus suddenly wanted to talk about Jesus and what a wonderful man of God he was in between talking about two separate seditions in Jerusalem. Makes no sense at all. But then it's not supposed to make sense, it's just supposed to get Jesus into the conversation to try to make it appear Jospehus thought Jesus was the Messiah. But Josephus was a Jew so he would never have called Jesus the Messiah. There are a who bookful of problems with this passage. Check them out if you're curious enough.
If there was any good, credible, evidence a god exists, we'd all be believers. ... if we had such evidence, would we lose our ability to exercise free will?
i have good, credible evidence my wife exists and I believe that she does ... what has that to do with my freedom of choice? I can still choose to be married to her or not. I can't choose to pretend she's a fairy tale or illusion of some kind, but so what? Life is all about separating fact from fantasy, when you think about it.
If there WAS an evidence as per everyone’s satisfaction then, think about it - we wouldn’t have a choice but to believe in the existence of God.
And if this was the case, then there would be no point in giving us a life with no choice.
We would all just come to the world, believed in the existence of God without a choice, worshipped him, we would go thru the event of death, and then we would go to Heaven - all 8 billion of us - and all those who lived before us - and all those who will come after us.
Which then begs the question - what’s the point of life if we are all going to to Heaven anyway? Why send us to this world? Why not just create us and send us directly to Heaven? Why even create hell?
One of the religious aspect on having a life is that we are given a choice as we are told that that,
There is a red line that may lead to trouble - and there is a green line that may lead to comfort.
And we are free to choose which line we want to follow?
Assume the Christian god is real. He's not, but assume he is anyway. Assume you have a 50/50 chance of getting to heaven or ending up in hell with free will. Assume without free will your chance of getting to heaven is 100% guaranteed. Isn't that worth the trade-off of losing your free will for the 100% guarantee of getting to heaven?
Assume the Christian god is real. He's not, but assume he is anyway. Assume you have a 50/50 chance of getting to heaven or ending up in hell with free will. Assume without free will your chance of getting to heaven is 100% guaranteed. Isn't that worth the trade-off of losing your free will for the 100% guarantee of getting to heaven?
What I find strange is you and all your Atheist pal's come here and wage spiritual war.
Maybe you should gather all Atheist's in one place as you keep trying to boast of your numbers, summons all the fallen Angels too. Then you can hurl all yours slurs and put me to Death. You claim Death as non-existence, which is the same claim you make of the One True God. I know Death as separation.............
Folks use the term "afterlife" which is an improper term. The proper term is "after this life".
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
