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The bold is overstatement and overly pessimistic, IMO. I agree that all the irrational dogma and absurd claims (which are unnecessary to Christ's essential message) need to be seen for what they are (the ruminations of a primitive people). They did their best to interpret whatever inspirations they received but they were not ready for the spiritual truth that Jesus represented and the "Carnal milk" they have been drinking has soured! But it seems you are no more ready for the spiritual truth than they were, Thrill.
You're comparing me, an educated person in the 21st century with ignorant goat herders living in the 1st century, Mystic?????? Doesn't seen like a fair comparison. Why not assume that people in the 21st century have outgrown a need for Jesus' milk like all adults do?
Also, do you know how empty the phrase "spiritual truth" is? What does it even mean in context? Is your spiritual truth the same as a Buddhist's or a Hindu's spiritual truth? Or is all spiritual truth the same even though the Buddhists and the Hindus don't recognize Jesus as anything other than an ordinary man?
I think that visit you had with Jesus did something to your powers of discernment. You're not making a heck of a lot of sense these days. Sorry to have to say but man, come on!
Putting the academic credential aside, these scientists took consideration the argument from the opposing side and still were convinced from a scientific perspective that God is real.
But did they consider the argument from any side? How do you know? Maybe they are just repeating what they were taught without applying their intellect to their beliefs.
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Originally Posted by compwiz02
Religious people tell atheists where the right places are all the time. It's interesting that you say "old refuted arguments". I'll reiterate the concept of a "double take". What if one of these "old refuted arguments", when looked at in a different angle, was actually....logical?
Except one must follow the logic, not just post it. And when you follow theist arguments, they use false premises, they often have to ignore evidence they do not like, and they make ad hoc excuses to try and rescue their arguments.
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Originally Posted by compwiz02
Have you ever watched the TV show, House MD?
No, when it first came out here in Germany, we were young parents who also had to try and build our businesses. Now my 2 babies are young women, and will in a few years time leave home, so I like to spend time with my family. This limits what I watch on the television.
For me, I see a world that is so full of bull**** and noise. I genuinely believe that the Christianity that we have now versus the Christianity that existed during the time of Jesus are two very different things. Religious leaders have added so much tradition and dogma to Christianity that it is now very hard to figure out what is true and what is a lie.
What convinces me that Jesus could be real and that there is a truth within Christianity is the fact that there are very strong math and science-driven scientists out there (eg: John Lennox) who will go face-to-face with any atheist and wholeheartedly say "I have studied science for decades, have a PhD, and can say God is real". There are also archaeologists out there whose discoveries are very fascinating.
I became non-denominational and I personally believe that going to church is optional because of the fact that as a society, we have completely tarnished the core values of Christianity.
Now when it comes to evidence. Again, I made a thread on this. Does the evidence have to be tangible?
Based on your post, it looks like you require tangible evidence. Personally, I think evidence can be both tangible and non-tangible. Have you ever asked yourself: perhaps you actually found evidence but your atheist mindset overlooked it and thought "no, this isn't real evidence"? maybe you are looking in the wrong places? or perhaps you are looking in the right places but you are looking at things using the wrong lense? a lot of times, we have to do a double take and go back to what we thought wasn't real and realize "oh wait, I totally misunderstood this....it is real".
You're right. Christianity has changed in the intervening 2000 years. It has become the model of corruption. The question is, even though it is wholly different from the decent one Jesus set up and is now corrupt beyond beyond repair should we still follow it because of its pedigree? I think no. Once something pure has become tainted it's no longer fit for consumption. You wouldn't eat meat that had turned green on the basis that it was once prime grass-fed beef, would you? People see what Christianity has become. But that's not its biggest problem. Christianity's biggest problem is that educated people are now realizing that God and Jesus don't deliver on any of the promises they made in the Bible. Why do most Christians stay Christian? Because they don't read their own holy book. Why do some Christians turn atheist? Because they do. The Bible has made more Christians into atheists than any other cause in the world, that's a fact.
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." ~Isaac Asimov.
Now if John Lennox an admittedly intelligent man continues to push God and Jesus it can be traced to a lot of thing. It can be traced to his potent upbringing as an Irish Catholic who simply cannot bear to part with the faith he has called father since he was in the cradle. This goes back to those two types of people I mentioned earlier--the one you could sell a snow-cone to a person in a blizzard and the other you couldn't sell a snow-cone to except on a blazing 110-degree day in Phoenix. We're all different, and some fall for the grift easier than others, some fall for it with no effort at all. If you were in the market for a new auto and I offered you a brand-new 4-runner for $10,000 and told you I was waiting for the title and keys and I didn't have any pics of it but that you should trust me that it was mine to sell, would you fork over the 10 grand on my word? How about if I told you that I had a vision from Jesus last night and he told me that you were going to buy my 4-Runner?
And to the evidence, yes it has to be tangible. What other kind of evidence is there? Would a court convict an accused on my sole word that I accepted Jesus and was given a revelation that the accused is guilty?
You're right. Christianity has changed in the intervening 2000 years. It has become the model of corruption. The question is, even though it is wholly different from the decent one Jesus set up and is now corrupt beyond repair should we still follow it because of its pedigree? I think no. Once something pure has become tainted it's no longer fit for consumption. You wouldn't eat meat that had turned green on the basis that it was once prime grass-fed beef, would you? People see what Christianity has become. But that's not its biggest problem. Christianity's biggest problem is that educated people are now realizing that God and Jesus don't deliver on any of the promises they made in the Bible. Why do most Christians stay Christian? Because they don't read their own holy book. Why do some Christians turn atheist? Because they do. The Bible has made more Christians into atheists than any other cause in the world, that's a fact.
To the bold, No! But you should follow Jesus who IS the Word of God (Logos) we were originally supposed to follow, NOT the "precepts and doctrines of men" derived from our ancestors' scribblings as if they were the Word of God.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 09-15-2023 at 11:06 AM..
Christianity's biggest problem is that educated people are now realizing that God and Jesus don't deliver on any of the promises they made in the Bible. Why do most Christians stay Christian? Because they don't read their own holy book. Why do some Christians turn atheist? Because they do. The Bible has made more Christians into atheists than any other cause in the world, that's a fact.
And to the evidence, yes it has to be tangible. What other kind of evidence is there? Would a court convict an accused on my sole word that I accepted Jesus and was given a revelation that the accused is guilty?
I'll respond to these two paragraphs. Can't really respond about John Lennox but you have a good point. But I would imagine a person with such a deep scientific background would fight for science and abandon his religious background if the science proved that God was not real. To imply that "John Lennox is only a believer because he grew up Catholic and refuses to part ways with his upbringing" is a bit of an assumption.
The first paragraph... The first sentence, in my opinion, is completely subjective and based on your own interpretation of the bible. The second sentence... I guarantee you many Christians have read the bible from cover to cover. The reason why Christians disagree with each other and also disagree with atheists is not due to their (both Christians and atheists) inability to read the bible but due to their interpretation of the bible. For the last sentence... I have no idea. Could be. I'd be interested to see a survey responses to the question "why did you become atheist?". I would not be surprised if the answer "the bible doesn't make sense to me" would be a top response. Take note.... I said "does not make sense", not "is not factually correct". Many people leave religion and become agnostic/atheist because they just don't want to go too deep into the bible. It's too hard to comprehend. Science is easier to understand. Although, I do admit....even science can make people go crazy.
As for evidence, I would have to kind of disagree. I'm not an expert on law but comparing the legal system with religion....not a very good comparison. I believe that there are things out there that "exist" but cannot be explained by science. They are "outside" of science. Unfortunately, you need to have your own personal experience with such things in order to believe in it.
Let me ask you. Is there tangible evidence that there is another planet exactly like Earth that exists? No. But there is a high possibility that there could be.
To the bold, No! But you should follow Jesus who IS the Word of God (Logos) we were originally supposed to follow, NOT the "precepts and doctrines of men" derived from our ancestors' scribblings as if they were the Word of God.
But how am I supposed to know the difference between the texts that the corrupt churchmen use and the good texts since both are the same? It all boils down to we as individuals and how I react to the same words that 3 billion Christians would read IF they read the Bible. I keep saying there are as many different kinds of Christianity as there are Christians. We all have our own interpretation of how the texts should read and no two interpretations are the same. That's the flaw in Christianity--that there are so many different ways to interpret the same verse. Which is why there are roughly 45,000 different Christian sects globally. Doesn't that tell you that there is something wrong with Jesus' teachings as they read today?
I'll respond to these two paragraphs. Can't really respond about John Lennox but you have a good point. But I would imagine a person with such a deep scientific background would fight for science and abandon his religious background if the science proved that God was not real. To imply that "John Lennox is only a believer because he grew up Catholic and refuses to part ways with his upbringing" is a bit of an assumption.
The first paragraph... The first sentence, in my opinion, is completely subjective and based on your own interpretation of the bible. The second sentence... I guarantee you many Christians have read the bible from cover to cover. The reason why Christians disagree with each other and also disagree with atheists is not due to their (both Christians and atheists) inability to read the bible but due to their interpretation of the bible. For the last sentence... I have no idea. Could be. I'd be interested to see a survey responses to the question "why did you become atheist?". I would not be surprised if the answer "the bible doesn't make sense to me" would be a top response. Take note.... I said "does not make sense", not "is not factually correct". Many people leave religion and become agnostic/atheist because they just don't want to go too deep into the bible. It's too hard to comprehend. Science is easier to understand. Although, I do admit....even science can make people go crazy.
As for evidence, I would have to kind of disagree. I'm not an expert on law but comparing the legal system with religion....not a very good comparison. I believe that there are things out there that "exist" but cannot be explained by science. They are "outside" of science. Unfortunately, you need to have your own personal experience with such things in order to believe in it.
Let me ask you. Is there tangible evidence that there is another planet exactly like Earth that exists? No. But there is a high possibility that there could be.
Lennox is a mathematician. His science background is not as strong as Dawkins for example.
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To imply that "John Lennox is only a believer because he grew up Catholic and refuses to part ways with his upbringing" is a bit of an assumption.
I only raise that as a possible explanation for his rabid faith based on no evidence. I puzzle over why he believes so strongly in Jesus when there is no historical evidence for him. What would you say about that?
"Many" is a loaded word. How many is "many"?
"While 77% of U.S. adults have a Bible, the percentage of adults who are “Bible Users” – people who read the Bible on their own outside of a church setting at least 3-4 times a year – dropped 11 percentage points to 39% in 2022. This represents a 25-million-person decline to 103 million Bible Users since last year."
Bear in mind this is out of a population of 3 BILLION Christians!
In the future please use quotes. When you say, "Your first sentence" I cannot recall what that sentence is. Thank you.
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Many people leave religion and become agnostic/atheist because they just don't want to go too deep into the bible.
There's that words, "many" again. You're using it just too many times. That is your assumption now. We don't catalogue the numbers of Christians who leave Christianity for this or that reason. Some don't get into it. A good percentage of Christians leaven the faith because having read the Bible from cover to cover and seeing how much dirt, filth, violence and child genocide is in it they close and say, "This convinced me. I'm getting out of this vile religion right this minute."
But how am I supposed to know the difference between the texts that the corrupt churchmen use and the good texts since both are the same? It all boils down to we as individuals and how I react to the same words that 3 billion Christians would read IF they read the Bible. I keep saying there are as many different kinds of Christianity as there are Christians. We all have our own interpretation of how the texts should be read and no two interpretations are the same. That's the flaw in Christianity--that there are so many different ways to interpret the same verse. Which is why there are roughly 45,000 different Christian sects globally. Doesn't that tell you that there is something wrong with Jesus' teachings as they read today?
That is because you and the many Christians you refer to have NEVER made the attempt to discern what JESUS HIMSELF was like from HIS ACTIONS, DEEDS, AND ATTITUDE, especially on the Cross! You have never tried to discover the "mind of Christ" because you are using the minds of our primitive ancestors and their interpretations and beliefs about God and Jesus in the scriptures. That is why there are so many different interpretations. You should all be using the SAME "mind of Christ" and asking "Would Jesus have actually said that or meant that?"
It's been several months since I last visited this forum. Been going through tough times in my personal life. Lost one of my biggest clients and had to resign from my day job (there's so much office politics in a corporate business). But things are slowly returning back to the way I want things to be. Finally got offered a job that I like (after dozens and dozens of job applications and rejections).
But anyhow, it has always been on my mind.....the concept of religion.
YouTube's algorithms have decided that it thinks I am interested in watching videos on religion so I've been watching a lot of videos on Christianity. Lots of videos on Christians answering questions from atheists and videos from archeologists showing evidence of things from the bible.
I know there are many strong atheists on this forum as well as very strong Christians. I consider myself a Christians. Specifically an agnostic Christian. If you were to ask me "honestly, do you believe you will go to heaven or hell when you die?" My answer: "I don't know". I believe most Christians go to church, pray and sing. But I think out of all of those Christians who go to church, a vast majority do so out of obligation. The mindset is "we have to go to Church". Ask them why do they have to go to church and many (not all) will give you the same answer that they would give you if you asked them "why do you need a college degree?" the answer: "because I have to" or "because it will make me more successful". But nothing really specific.
But I'm not here to mock Christians. I have questions for both Christianity and atheists. I haven't had time to budget my funds and invest in the religious books that I have in my existing cart on Amazon. There's a lot of books that peak my interest that I want to indulge myself in.
But my point is.... it's hard for many people to say those 3 words: "I don't know".
What do you guys think? Is it easy for you to say "I don't know" or "I'm not sure"?
I might start another thread because there's another topic idea I had.
if i don't know something or if I seek to understand more about something, or am puzzled about something, then what i have found far more fruitful (than just saying "I don't know" ) is to start asking questions. Think of it as asking questing to the universe, asking questions to god, asking questions and pondering and wondering about whatever it is want to know more about. then i just go about my day and invariably things come my way that help me understand more about whatever it is i have asked about. i think of it as a dialog. it is not static, it is active. additional questions may be raised or occur, and so i ask those and it continues. I started out writing down my questions, keeping lists of questions "I really want to know about this what is going on here" what about "this" and "this" and "this" with my questions and areas of concern listed.
i kept adding questions to the list, and crossed off the questions that no longer applied, and over time i noticed that yes the questions were answered and it felt like an actual dialog where there was a responsiveness to the questions i was asking and mulling over. i found it fascinating. after many years and decades it became just natural to have this ongoing. So i don't really write the questions down any more. It is instead just an ongoing dialog.
it is said that prayer is talking to god, and meditation is hearing the response.
if i don't know something or if I seek to understand more about something, or am puzzled about something, then what i have found far more fruitful (than just saying "I don't know" ) is to start asking questions. Think of it as asking questing to the universe, asking questions to god, asking questions and pondering and wondering about whatever it is want to know more about. then i just go about my day and invariably things come my way that help me understand more about whatever it is i have asked about. i think of it as a dialog. it is not static, it is active. additional questions may be raised or occur, and so i ask those and it continues. I started out writing down my questions, keeping lists of questions "I really want to know about this what is going on here" what about "this" and "this" and "this" with my questions and areas of concern listed.
i kept adding questions to the list, and crossed off the questions that no longer applied, and over time i noticed that yes the questions were answered and it felt like an actual dialog where there was a responsiveness to the questions i was asking and mulling over. i found it fascinating. after many years and decades it became just natural to have this ongoing. So i don't really write the questions down any more. It is instead just an ongoing dialog.
it is said that prayer is talking to god, and meditation is hearing the response.
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That is your assumption now. We don't catalogue the numbers of Christians who leave Christianity for this or that reason. Some don't get into it. A good percentage of Christians leaven the faith because having read the Bible from cover to cover and seeing how much dirt, filth, violence and child genocide is in it they close and say, "This convinced me. I'm getting out of this vile religion right this minute." 
