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I will grant you that no one can read your threads without understanding that "real" to you in the context of "Jesus wasn't real" means he did not historically exist as a discrete person, that he is an entirely made-up character. Amirite?
This question doesn't particularly interest me as a debate point, though it's fun to explore nonetheless. I mostly sit that debate out because it's not a hill I care to die on. The main point is the gospels aren't describing actual history and also are not, as widely claimed, "eyewitness accounts" in any meaningful sense of those words. If the gospels are "based on a real person" or "based on a true story" in the hollywood sense it doesn't change anything about the fabulist and self-contradictory nature of the accounts and that they amount to fan fiction.
I thank you, mordant for addressing the post I directed at phetaori, which pehtaori has no intention of discussing--probably because of some traumatic experience he had with Christianity in the past and doesn't want to relive it. And I fully intend to respond to your long post of your deconversion because I found it the most fascinating story I have read, certainly in here--actually the ONLY story in here outside of mine.
But as to the quote above let me clarify my intentions as I constantly try to do because my previous explanations never get read or they get missed:
Thoreau describes me as a foaming at the mouth Christophobe, which is hilarious as he is a foaming at the mouth Christian who never offers anything of worth to the question, just insults and mocking because I hurt his feelings. It'd be much more constructive if he'd contribute something that proved his mythical pagan man-god was real--and God-knows I've tried to get him to do so, that would shut me up real good; but he refuses to put up because as we all know, he has nothing but blanks in his pistol. Well, such is the situation when you're a Christian up to your neck in quicksand like Thoreau is.
Quote:
I will grant you that no one can read your threads without understanding that "real" to you in the context of "Jesus wasn't real" means he did not historically exist as a discrete person, that he is an entirely made-up character. Amirite?
No, you're wrong, mordant, and God knows I've tried to stress the point innumerable times. If people will read the OP disclaimer of the "Jesus is a myth" thread they'll get my intentions. Actually I'll just state the disclaimer again. This is from the OP:
Quote:
Disclaimer: When I speak of Jesus I am referring to the Jesus Christ of the gospels and Acts. I acknowledge there may have been an earthly character upon which the legend of Jesus Christ was based. Most scholars accept this although they have no historical proof for such.
So I am NOT trying to disprove a historical Jesus. One may have indeed existed. We don't know. WE JUST DON'T KNOW because we have no entries in the secular record of any such person named Jesus who was reputed to have performed miracles and who was crucified. Historians just assume he was real because how else do they explain the advent of Christianity and it's spread. For that matter, how do we explain the spread of worship of Osiris for 3-4 thousand years. Was there a real Egyptian upon which the Osiris mythical god was based? Again, we simply don't know.
JC, I hope that clears up the matter! In a nutshell, I am NOT trying to disprove a historical figure upon which the gospel Jesus was likely based. I am trying to prove--with evidence--that the gospel Jesus is a myth man god just like a dozen other mythical men gods that came before him, despite Thoreau's ranting and raving that I haven't proven squat and other sundry nonsense like "I'm still waiting".
Quote:
This question doesn't particularly interest me as a debate point, though it's fun to explore nonetheless. I mostly sit that debate out because it's not a hill I care to die on. The main point is the gospels aren't describing actual history and also are not, as widely claimed, "eyewitness accounts" in any meaningful sense of those words. If the gospels are "based on a real person" or "based on a true story" in the hollywood sense it doesn't change anything about the fabulist and self-contradictory nature of the accounts and that they amount to fan fiction.
I get that. Not everyone is interested in knowing if the gospel Jesus was real and that's perfectly fine. But there are roughly 100 books out there addressing the topic and I gave a list of 20 of the most promising ones in the other thread. Clearly there is a market for it if scholars are doing all this research and more and more scholars are coming over to the theory that the gospels Jesus was indeed a myth because that's where the evidence is pointing. When you say,
"The main point is the gospels aren't describing actual history and also are not, as widely claimed, "eyewitness accounts" in any meaningful sense of those words."
you are obviously not referring to Christians because they swear on a stack of Bibles that the gospel Jesus was as real as you or I, despite not having a nickel's worth of secular evidence he was. Of course that doesn't matter to them; they are going to stay faithful to their mythical god till the cows come home no matter what evidence surfaces he wasn't real. My posts are not intended to persuade fanatics like Thoreau and BaptistFundie. It'd be easier to blow up Mt Everest than try to convince them Jesus wasn't real so I don't waste my time on that wild goose chase.
My intended audience is the silent lurkers who are undecided about Christianity but who are open-minded enough about the matter that they will listen to what I have to say. I am not offering anything new. Everything I say here can be found in any volume on Jesus mythicism. But how many lurkers here are going to invest the time and money into buying a volume? So they can get the info free right here to help them decide if they want to join a dying religion or simply steer clear of Jesus and live a much fuller, richer life devoid of him and all the shackles he would drag into their lives. For me, this is a hill I am willing to die on because I don't want young people throwing their lives away on Jesus and Christianity. I've experienced the disastrous consequences of being a Christian and I want to help people avoid making the same mistake.
Hilarious. The OP has some alleged "disastrous" experience of his own making (LOL), thinks others are just like him (LOL!), and that he needs to rescue them (LOL!!) This comedy of errors just keeps snowballing before our eyes.
By all means, continue! This is the best entertainment this side of the Internet This thread in particular is already a classic.
Last edited by Thoreau424; 11-15-2022 at 10:30 AM..
I thank you, mordant for addressing the post I directed at phetaori, which pehtaori has no intention of discussing--probably because of some traumatic experience he had with Christianity in the past and doesn't want to relive it. And I fully intend to respond to your long post of your deconversion because I found it the most fascinating story I have read, certainly in here--actually the ONLY story in here outside of mine.
But as to the quote above let me clarify my intentions as I constantly try to do because my previous explanations never get read or they get missed:
Thoreau describes me as a foaming at the mouth Christophobe, which is hilarious as he is a foaming at the mouth Christian who never offers anything of worth to the question, just insults and mocking because I hurt his feelings. It'd be much more constructive if he'd contribute something that proved his mythical pagan man-god was real--and God-knows I've tried to get him to do so, that would shut me up real good; but he refuses to put up because as we all know, he has nothing but blanks in his pistol. Well, such is the situation when you're a Christian up to your neck in quicksand like Thoreau is.
No, you're wrong, mordant, and God knows I've tried to stress the point innumerable times. If people will read the OP disclaimer of the "Jesus is a myth" thread they'll get my intentions. Actually I'll just state the disclaimer again. This is from the OP:
So I am NOT trying to disprove a historical Jesus. One may have indeed existed. We don't know. WE JUST DON'T KNOW because we have no entries in the secular record of any such person named Jesus who was reputed to have performed miracles and who was crucified. Historians just assume he was real because how else do they explain the advent of Christianity and it's spread. For that matter, how do we explain the spread of worship of Osiris for 3-4 thousand years. Was there a real Egyptian upon which the Osiris mythical god was based? Again, we simply don't know.
JC, I hope that clears up the matter! In a nutshell, I am NOT trying to disprove a historical figure upon which the gospel Jesus was likely based. I am trying to prove--with evidence--that the gospel Jesus is a myth man god just like a dozen other mythical men gods that came before him, despite Thoreau's ranting and raving that I haven't proven squat and other sundry nonsense like "I'm still waiting".
I get that. Not everyone is interested in knowing if the gospel Jesus was real and that's perfectly fine. But there are roughly 100 books out there addressing the topic and I gave a list of 20 of the most promising ones in the other thread. Clearly there is a market for it if scholars are doing all this research and more and more scholars are coming over to the theory that the gospels Jesus was indeed a myth because that's where the evidence is pointing. When you say,
"The main point is the gospels aren't describing actual history and also are not, as widely claimed, "eyewitness accounts" in any meaningful sense of those words."
you are obviously not referring to Christians because they swear on a stack of Bibles that the gospel Jesus was as real as you or I, despite not having a nickel's worth of secular evidence he was. Of course that doesn't matter to them; they are going to stay faithful to their mythical god till the cows come home no matter what evidence surfaces he wasn't real. My posts are not intended to persuade fanatics like Thoreau and BaptistFundie. It'd be easier to blow up Mt Everest than try to convince them Jesus wasn't real so I don't waste my time on that wild goose chase.
My intended audience is the silent lurkers who are undecided about Christianity but who are open-minded enough about the matter that they will listen to what I have to say. I am not offering anything new. Everything I say here can be found in any volume on Jesus mythicism. But how many lurkers here are going to invest the time and money into buying a volume? So they can get the info free right here to help them decide if they want to join a dying religion or simply steer clear of Jesus and live a much fuller, richer life devoid of him and all the shackles he would drag into their lives. For me, this is a hill I am willing to die on because I don't want young people throwing their lives away on Jesus and Christianity. I've experienced the disastrous consequences of being a Christian and I want to help people avoid making the same mistake.
Quit the BS about someone else's supposed trauma. Just worry about your own.
What in the heck does that mean? A statement followed by a question????
Phetaroi, if you prefer not to discuss it, just say so and I won't bother you. I mean you're evading the question like crazy. But I am really curious as all heck as to why you firmly believe no amount of evidence could prove Jesus wasn't real. That's like saying there's no amount of Hubble telescope pictures of the galaxies that could convince you there are galaxies in space.
Nobody can prove a negative, so, of course, it is not possible to PROVE Jesus wasn't real. Your next statement is comparing a negative to a positive. Galaxies are something you can see. Evidence of a positive claim is a world different from a lack of evidence for a negative claim.
I'm not evading the question. I'm just not giving you the answers you want to hear.
I told you I've determined you're not interested in answering the question. A legitimate answer would be something along the line of:
"I've read the evidence for Jesus mythicism and while I agree there isn't any historic evidence for him, I'm not convinced the 21 other men-gods and Jesus' story matching theirs clinches the case."
That would be a legitimate response whether you want to admit it or not--not some cryptic nonsensical statement framed as a question like
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
What is real is this case?
But as I said, I know when I'm flogging a dead horse so I won't bother you with the question anymore. Carry on.
I told you I've determined you're not interested in answering the question. A legitimate answer would be something along the line of:
"I've read the evidence for Jesus mythicism and while I agree there isn't any historic evidence for him, I'm not convinced the 21 other men-gods and Jesus' story matching theirs clinches the case."
That would be a legitimate response whether you want to admit it or not--not some cryptic nonsensical statement framed as a question like
But as I said, I know when I'm flogging a dead horse so I won't bother you with the question anymore. Carry on.
So now you're going to dictate answers that other posters should respond with? You do have a problem.
That's my story. Any other ex-Christians have a story to tell?
I refuse to believe in the concept of a vengeful god who would cast one into hell to burn for eternity for not worshiping him properly. We make our own hell or heaven in the here and now. There is no "afterlife" I know because I died several times (Respiratory and cardiac failure) from an accident four years ago and fortunately was revived. No "tunnel of light" or out of body experience just nothing. I woke up a month later remembering nothing. Some call it a miracle, others a second chance. I called it a will to live. Enjoy the here and now. There's no "other side".
I have to warn you, jen, that's about the kind of bluster you're going to get from the Jesus fanatics in here. If you're not a raving, foaming-at-the-mouth Jesus lover then you're Public Enemy No 1 to them--even if you're only giving support to other friendly people they consider their enemies. Frankly, it takes a strong stomach to hang around in here and few make it past a few years before throwing in the towel. I encourage you to hang tough.
Religion is a man made concept to control people and originally was used to explain natural phenomenon to ignorant people. I am the first to admit there’s comfort in the rituals. Jesus the myth may indeed be based on a real person. People with morals and values don’t need a mythical god to keep them from doing what’s wrong.
LOL Thrill. You don't trust anyone's capacity to think for his or herself, so you must rush to tell them how to think.
Keep digging that hole of yours deeper and deeper!
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This thread in particular is already a classic.
