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I can understand, yet, not exactly condone....changing some 'off' beliefs...but often they are replaced
by 'better' beliefs...ok ... What I mean is ...Say, someone believes that God is a punishing, wrathful God... I think it is just dandy to try to change their belief to:
'He' is simply Pure Love and always wants the best for us.
............
Btw, thrill has given his reason for this apparent mission of his a few times here.
I don't agree with it, but I do understand it.
One of the problems with trying to change someone's view is that they might just go along with you for your emotional sake and to save the peace.
I am sympathetic, KingCat. Changing the way the world works, as LearnMe calls it the slow maturing of humanity, is a messy business that does involve our individual efforts to improve it. The poet Ginsburg revealed the truly evocative power of poetic imagery when describing changing the world, IMO. He said: "The world is a mountain of S H I T and if it is to be moved at all it must be taken by handfuls."
I can't condone the atheist wanting to take the faith of the believer. Those seeking to confront the faithful and talk them out of their belief. What are you giving them? If you can't replace their God with something better, then why would you take it from them? If you change their mind, you gain nothing. They lose everything. A nice person should never want to do that.
That's my perspective.
Then it is a good job most atheists are not doing this. Pointing out false information and bad arguments on the internet is for everyone to read, so that others can make choices based on an open discussion. You know, those agnostic doubters seeking 'proof'.
But it is hypocrisy to say it is in order for the religious to try and change peoples minds, but this is wrong for atheism.
You are also presuming a god belief is something better. In what way is it better? Because false hopes are comforting? Because swapping today's freedoms for the hope of a better afterlife is good?
And if a religious person stops believing, have they really lost everything?
Your every statement appears to be biased/aggressive i.e. ‘if the religious can get over themselves’. Who cares if they don’t? It’s absolutely nonsensical, from my perspective, to place the blame on either side i.e. it takes two to argue (although some appear to do so with themselves, lol).
In other words, a person who invests their emotional energy/time into arguing personal opinion (over something that doesn’t even exist, from my perspective) is doing so for some underlying (psychological) reason, particularly relative to an offensive/repetitive stance. I certainly understand defending/arguing our rights as atheists; that said, I don’t understand the personal/intensive arguments relative to opinion/threads which essentially all sound the same. It’s more than clear many are grounded in antitheism; and, obviously, it’s extremely short-sighted to attack/argue/hate another’s right to believe if we want to protect our right not to. Relative to law (and psychological health), it’s common sense.
I think you're confusing me calling a spade a spade with bias. I of course have a view. I think the religious take themselves and their beliefs far too seriously and if they want to do that, that's fine, but I am not going to walk on eggshells to enable them, either.
I base this statement on my first hand knowledge that I took myself and my beliefs far too seriously back in the day, and most of my compatriots did as well. I have learned better since. That doesn't make be superior or something, but I am not apologizing for other people's reactions and responses either.
As to anti-theism -- I can only speak for myself. I am not against theism as such, only the inability of many theists to mind their own business and not impose their beliefs on outsiders / society. I see that as a great and objective harm and I don't mind saying so. If the shoe doesn't fit in a particular instance, a person doesn't have to wear it. Indeed, many theists I've engaged with here are able to not be personally offended, so I know it's possible.
No one here, least of all me, is attacking anyone's right to believe whatever they please. I may not find their beliefs coherent, harmless, justified or respectable, but they still have the right to subscribe to anything their hearts desire. As I have a right to disagree, and give voice to those disagreements.
I think you're confusing me calling a spade a spade with bias. I of course have a view. I think the religious take themselves and their beliefs far too seriously and if they want to do that, that's fine, but I am not going to walk on eggshells to enable them, either.
Do you not think you take their beliefs too seriously as well, by being emotionally invested in the argument? The crux of my point is not that you don’t have a right to argue or (what I see as) waste your time; it’s to question the lack of logic and psychological motivation behind it. For me, calling a spade a spade is about reality and acceptance - no matter what one foolishly believes. It’s relative to law; and quite frankly, the only thing we can stand on to defend our rights as atheists. Anyone who refuses to (or can’t) see such is battling personal demons, from my perspective. The sad part is, by allowing such to fester/continue, you (will) ultimately harm yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
As to anti-theism -- I can only speak for myself. I am not against theism as such, only the inability of many theists to mind their own business and not impose their beliefs on outsiders / society.
Is that not exactly what you’re doing as well i.e. you’re imposing your anger on others and not minding your own business. It takes two people to argue i.e. glance over the numerous threads in this Forum; ridiculously, they all sound the same from both sides. As I see it, the problem is not with theism or atheism (per this or any thread); it’s individual personalities (on both sides) who narcissistically believe their rights/opinion trump others. Try as you might, you can’t control what others think (nor does a healthy individual attempt to do so); I’m calling a spade a spade.
Do you not think you take their beliefs too seriously as well, by being emotionally invested in the argument? The crux of my point is not that you don’t have a right to argue or (what I see as) waste your time; it’s to question the lack of logic and psychological motivation behind it. For me, calling a spade a spade is about reality and acceptance - no matter what one foolishly believes. It’s relative to law; and quite frankly, the only thing we can stand on to defend our rights as atheists. Anyone who refuses to (or can’t) see such is battling personal demons, from my perspective. The sad part is, by allowing such to fester/continue, you (will) ultimately harm yourself.
Is that not exactly what you’re doing as well i.e. you’re imposing your anger on others and not minding your own business. It takes two people to argue i.e. glance over the numerous threads in this Forum; ridiculously, they all sound the same from both sides. As I see it, the problem is not with theism or atheism (per this or any thread); it’s individual personalities (on both sides) who narcissistically believe their rights/opinion trump others. Try as you might, you can’t control what others think (nor does a healthy individual attempt to do so); I’m calling a spade a spade.
We function in a marketplace of ideas -- a marketplace where the religious have long enjoyed unearned respect and deference. Literally all I'm doing is not giving them those unearned things. I'm not abusing anyone. I'm not upset or angry or invested beyond whatever I post. I don't lay awake nights about it. I'm just participating. I'm interested in these topics because of my own history with them.
If my participation is upsetting, or if you have psychological theories about me, imagine anger in my that I don't possess, etc., no I can't control that and I probably am not going to directly change any specific person's views -- yours included. People don't change until the pain of not changing is greater than the pain of changing, basically. Based on the rule of thumb that there are up to a hundred lurkers for every actual poster on forums like this, I suspect that there is the occasional person reading posts here who are open to change because their abstraction of choice is too leaky. These conversations may be helpful to the right person at the right time, in ways I would have appreciated in my own journey out of the faith. I after all am a former believer, and now am not; there are others like that here as well. And in fact there are people heading in the other direction, for whom atheism is a way station between, say, authoritarian religion and a more relaxed and inclusive version of same. It's all good if people are helped along in their journeys.
I learned a long time ago that fretting about what people might think or how they might abreact to something I say is a fool's errand. I do try to be frank / direct but not gratuitously so, and also not unkind or combative. I've had some very respectful and nuanced conversations with theists here who choose to be at least marginally humble and respectful, even if they don't agree with me. Otherwise I mostly consider their responses to be that they can dish things out but can't take them [shrug]. That is not my problem, or yours; it is theirs.
We function in a marketplace of ideas -- a marketplace where the religious have long enjoyed unearned respect and deference. Literally all I'm doing is not giving them those unearned things. I'm not abusing anyone. I'm not upset or angry or invested beyond whatever I post. I don't lay awake nights about it. I'm just participating. I'm interested in these topics because of my own history with them.
If my participation is upsetting, or if you have psychological theories about me, imagine anger in my that I don't possess, etc., no I can't control that and I probably am not going to directly change any specific person's views -- yours included. People don't change until the pain of not changing is greater than the pain of changing, basically. Based on the rule of thumb that there are up to a hundred lurkers for every actual poster on forums like this, I suspect that there is the occasional person reading posts here who are open to change because their abstraction of choice is too leaky. These conversations may be helpful to the right person at the right time, in ways I would have appreciated in my own journey out of the faith. I after all am a former believer, and now am not; there are others like that here as well. And in fact there are people heading in the other direction, for whom atheism is a way station between, say, authoritarian religion and a more relaxed and inclusive version of same. It's all good if people are helped along in their journeys.
I learned a long time ago that fretting about what people might think or how they might abreact to something I say is a fool's errand. I do try to be frank / direct but not gratuitously so, and also not unkind or combative. I've had some very respectful and nuanced conversations with theists here who choose to be at least marginally humble and respectful, even if they don't agree with me. Otherwise I mostly consider their responses to be that they can dish things out but can't take them [shrug]. That is not my problem, or yours; it is theirs.
As a theist, I detect no antipathy in you, mordant, for what it is worth!
I agree; (obvious) point being, if one really doesn’t care, why argue - particularly relative to the sheer volume of threads in this forum that pertain to this one.
It is not necessarily arguing, but if no one discusses the topics there would be no forum or exchange of ideas.
It is not necessarily arguing, but if no one discusses the topics there would be no forum or exchange of ideas.
The thread is (specifically) about arguments, and the narrow-mindedness in which it is based. It’s quite the opposite of discussion and an exchange of ideas.
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