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I recall years back when the war on Christmas propaganda was in full swing, and I totally bought into it hook line and sinker. There was a billboard sponsored by an atheist organization that was stirring up controversy. It had a picture of Santa and read, “Go ahead and skip church! Just be good for goodness' sake”. Reading about it made me livid. Today... I totally understand.
One thing I do understand from my own experience in fundamentalism is that not every fundamentalist is wound that tight or buys into every conspiracy theory or cultural grievance that the leadership cooks up. I think however that in recent years it has come to pass that the lunatics are very much running the asylum and whatever moderating influence more thoughtful evangelicals might have had, is about as influential now as so called "principled Republicans" in the GOP. Which is to say they are effectively frozen out. Not all of them have gone over to atheism, some are agnostics or liberal Christians now. It is telling however that none of those "fates" were thinkable to me a mere 30 years ago. Like you, I really was invested, and never though it would come to this, lol.
Just putting it out there for those who are afraid to or don't want to venture into the A&A, but still have questions.
I'll start. I wasn't always an atheist, in fact, I was quite the opposite. Questions and doubts had me searching for answers wherever I could find them. Well, I didn't find answers. There are none. There's no proof to be had from the Christianity side of things. It's all conjecture and wishful thinking. This is just my findings, so don't get offended.
I had entered the A&A forum several times, arguing my points as a Christian. As a doubter, I wanted to really listen to them and hear what they had to say. I had never known an atheist because in my religion they were to be shunned because they were more or less evil and it would create doubts. No, I already had doubts and I wanted to know why someone would choose evil over good.
Its' actually funny to me now how my indoctrination had made me think anyone who didn't believe in god is evil. I listened to atheists, I argued some more and eventually I came to Universalism, briefly. It sounded more plausible but it still didn't make much sense. It was a long process of letting go of preconceived notions and lies. These atheists were cool and super smart, and no agenda!
Now, I am an "agnostic atheist" which means I lean more towards there not being a god. Other agnostics simply admit they don't know, some atheists demand that there isn't a god. We're all different but agree on one thing that does not require "faith", as some people are claiming, it's simply just dis-belief due to lack of evidence.
Please, let's keep it civil and not let it turn into a free-for-all mud-slinging contest.
You obviously have no children, or weren't present during their birth. I don't suppose you like to watch a sunrise or sunset over the mountains, or enjoy watching two squirrels at play from your front porch. Maybe nobody has ever come to your need on a very bad day, or supported you through a life changing event. You've never seen a full moon and all the stars on a beautiful night, or made shapes of animals from puffy clouds. Have you watched a newborn elephant stand up for the first time or watched a Daddy give his daughter away at her wedding? A big bang can cause a comotion but it can't form all that.
Just putting it out there for those who are afraid to or don't want to venture into the A&A, but still have questions.
I'll start. I wasn't always an atheist, in fact, I was quite the opposite. Questions and doubts had me searching for answers wherever I could find them. Well, I didn't find answers. There are none. There's no proof to be had from the Christianity side of things. It's all conjecture and wishful thinking. This is just my findings, so don't get offended.
I had entered the A&A forum several times, arguing my points as a Christian. As a doubter, I wanted to really listen to them and hear what they had to say. I had never known an atheist because in my religion they were to be shunned because they were more or less evil and it would create doubts. No, I already had doubts and I wanted to know why someone would choose evil over good.
Its' actually funny to me now how my indoctrination had made me think anyone who didn't believe in god is evil. I listened to atheists, I argued some more and eventually I came to Universalism, briefly. It sounded more plausible but it still didn't make much sense. It was a long process of letting go of preconceived notions and lies. These atheists were cool and super smart, and no agenda!
Now, I am an "agnostic atheist" which means I lean more towards there not being a god. Other agnostics simply admit they don't know, some atheists demand that there isn't a god. We're all different but agree on one thing that does not require "faith", as some people are claiming, it's simply just dis-belief due to lack of evidence.
Please, let's keep it civil and not let it turn into a free-for-all mud-slinging contest.
Thank you for your honest thread.
I was discussing this topic with my wife last night.
The whole theist,atheist,agnostic,faith, no faith conundrum
I have had an experience that changed my life. Prior to that, I don't honestly know what I was. Went to church as a kid. Parents were vague about any belief system. I quess I was agnostic. Maybe.
Didn't really think about.
My behavior could best be decribed as pagan
My experience is as if a loved one walked up behind you and stood there. You know someones there.
And like when you confide with a loved one, who says nothing, but you know they empathize, and want the best for you.
I knew it was "real", but not in a way my limited senses or language could ( or can ) articulate.
So.....my wife asks ( half joking ) prove it.
Obviously I can't
But I then pointed out times she has met someone at say the grocery store, and had a nice conversation. I could ask for the same proof.
I guess my point is, I fully understand the atheist and agnostic point of view. I know it. I had it.
My wife said most rational people would think I'm crazy. I understand.
It does sound crazy.
But I honestly have no better way to describe my faith.
You obviously have no children, or weren't present during their birth. I don't suppose you like to watch a sunrise or sunset over the mountains, or enjoy watching two squirrels at play from your front porch. Maybe nobody has ever come to your need on a very bad day, or supported you through a life changing event. You've never seen a full moon and all the stars on a beautiful night, or made shapes of animals from puffy clouds. Have you watched a newborn elephant stand up for the first time or watched a Daddy give his daughter away at her wedding? A big bang can cause a comotion but it can't form all that.
How come you only mention the pretty, lovely things?
I do have a question, since you've given me permission.
Do you believe your more anti-religion, or anti-religious people?
It's my observation, that many "atheists" in particular share a resentment and distrust of religion and religious people. ( which I totally understand)
I was discussing this topic with my wife last night.
The whole theist,atheist,agnostic,faith, no faith conundrum
I have had an experience that changed my life. Prior to that, I don't honestly know what I was. Went to church as a kid. Parents were vague about any belief system. I quess I was agnostic. Maybe.
Didn't really think about.
My behavior could best be decribed as pagan
My experience is as if a loved one walked up behind you and stood there. You know someones there.
And like when you confide with a loved one, who says nothing, but you know they empathize, and want the best for you.
I knew it was "real", but not in a way my limited senses or language could ( or can ) articulate.
So.....my wife asks ( half joking ) prove it.
Obviously I can't
But I then pointed out times she has met someone at say the grocery store, and had a nice conversation. I could ask for the same proof.
I guess my point is, I fully understand the atheist and agnostic point of view. I know it. I had it.
My wife said most rational people would think I'm crazy. I understand.
It does sound crazy.
But I honestly have no better way to describe my faith.
So let's not take you, but instead take the average christian who feels that way. And then expects everyone to just believe the same thing that he or she believes. Why should we?
So let's not take you, but instead take the average christian who feels that way. And then expects everyone to just believe the same thing that he or she believes. Why should we?
I get it. I really do.
I suspect you would pay more attention to my actions then my words.
And frankly, that's the best way I can truely communicate my faith.
You obviously have no children, or weren't present during their birth. I don't suppose you like to watch a sunrise or sunset over the mountains, or enjoy watching two squirrels at play from your front porch. Maybe nobody has ever come to your need on a very bad day, or supported you through a life changing event. You've never seen a full moon and all the stars on a beautiful night, or made shapes of animals from puffy clouds. Have you watched a newborn elephant stand up for the first time or watched a Daddy give his daughter away at her wedding? A big bang can cause a comotion but it can't form all that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
How come you only mention the pretty, lovely things?
Because they probably don't dwell in a pit of negativity & hatred like some do.
Maybe getting counsel from this:
Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
Afraid ??
I think Atheism is laughable, when an intelligent person looks around and believes that the entire universe and everything in it, came together all by itself. But hey, we are all free to make our choices - so good for whoever believes in Atheism.
I suspect you would pay more attention to my actions then my words.
And frankly, that's the best way I can truely communicate my faith.
You seem like a reasonable guy.
I will just point out that as an atheist (or as a Buddhist) my actions are what I should be based on.
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