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At least there are others who are not so "trigger happy" and willing to extend a benefit of the doubt or at least discuss whatever pinch points that may arise in these sorts of discussions.
It’s not an irrational response when people don’t have the history of longer off-line discussions with you to understand your probable intentions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
For example, although we have often been cross ways with your poor choice of analogies, I/we should not be shy to "call 'em the way we see 'em" (or learn them). Another perfect example is sports! Although the great majority of players on the court or on the field are Black, who are the ones "pulling the strings?" The great majority of them are older white males! (Though this is slowly being corrected over time since once upon a time when all the coaches and management were white males).
Do I need to deny these facts as well?
The huge distinction is that white privilege remains rampant in American society. Jewish privilege doesn’t exist anywhere outside the state of Israel and Israeli-occupied portions of the West Bank and Golan Heights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
PS: To be in a position of power or control and what they do with it is one thing. How people or groups of people get there is another...
That’s a strange thing to say in the context of a post where you’re denying anti-Semitic animus (and that’s not me backtracking and calling you an anti-Semite; I just suggest you take a moment and see how that closing line can be perceived).
I much appreciate your efforts and hope the striving isn't difficult. Another interesting choice of words...
I've done the same with you, and it's been nothing but a pleasure.
LOL
It’s certainly not difficult, and I don’t see how that’s an odd choice of words (if you intended to use “interesting” as a synonym for odd), but maybe there’s some subtext I’m overlooking.
But yes, I do enjoy our discussions. Otherwise I wouldn’t engage in them.
Insidious is the correct word for such subtle antisemitism, Tzaph, because it usually is below the conscious awareness of those who have it, IMO. LearnMe probably feels it is VERY unfair even to suggest it is a factor in his case, as would I.
"VERY unfair" is putting it mildly, but from some posters in this forum I've become quite accustomed to the nasty manner in which they can be entirely unreasonable and just flat out wanting to raise the ugly head of antisemitism "at the drop of a hat." I would go on about this, but I am striving very hard to keep it civil here.
Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt here as well, if I can read your comment that way...
I can’t really say since I haven’t seen you discuss it, but if that indicates your position, then I’m going to say his Jewish identity is more overt than your Italian and English identities (the latter of which I didn’t even know about until just now.
And that’s perfectly fine. People have every right to take pride in their heritage, but they’re certainly not compelled to do so.
That’s all up to you. Do you have a problem with the idea that Donald Fagen is a proud ethnocultural Jew? Does it undermine or challenge your respect and admiration for him as a musician and songwriter?
This is yet another interesting subject, no doubt a little off topic, but damn if I can start a new thread to discuss every interesting topic that comes up in this forum. My wife has been calling me to lunch, and I'm keeping her waiting, so I best sign off now if I know what's good for me, but real quick I'll just say of course it is perfectly fine for anyone to be proud of whatever they want to feel proud about. Sometimes I think people can be a little "thick" when it comes to that sort of thing regardless what they are proud about, but of course that's a very subjective matter.
I think I'm just a little confused about what Fagen, for example, is proud about even though I know we all see the world through the lens of our past. I am not in the least bit NOT proud about my heritage, but I just don't find myself thinking to be proud (or better) than anyone else about anything like that. I've read about how Dylan was influenced by his Jewish family, upbringing, also for example, and no doubt appreciative about some of that, but he has never expressed a sense of being "proud" about being Jewish or any of that from what I've read and heard in interviews with him.
Our past is part of who we are of course...
Ah I hear my wife calling again. Cheers and thanks again! Until I have more time perhaps tomorrow...
PS: To be in a position of power or control and what they do with it is one thing. How people or groups of people get there is another...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElijahAstin
It’s not an irrational response when people don’t have the history of longer offline discussions with you to understand your probable intentions.
The huge distinction is that white privilege remains rampant in American society. Jewish privilege doesn’t exist anywhere outside the state of Israel and Israeli-occupied portions of the West Bank and Golan Heights.
That’s a strange thing to say in the context of a post where you’re denying anti-Semitic animus (and that’s not me backtracking and calling you an anti-Semite; I just suggest you take a moment and see how that closing line can be perceived).
As Tzaph said, it can be insidious because it is not at the conscious level.
This is yet another interesting subject, no doubt a little off topic, but damn if I can start a new thread to discuss every interesting topic that comes up in this forum. My wife has been calling me to lunch, and I'm keeping her waiting, so I best sign off now if I know what's good for me, but real quick I'll just say of course it is perfectly fine for anyone to be proud of whatever they want to feel proud about. Sometimes I think people can be a little "thick" when it comes to that sort of thing regardless what they are proud about, but of course that's a very subjective matter.
I think I'm just a little confused about what Fagen, for example, is proud about even though I know we all see the world through the lens of our past. I am not in the least bit NOT proud about my heritage, but I just don't find myself thinking to be proud (or better) than anyone else about anything like that. I've read about how Dylan was influenced by his Jewish family, upbringing, also for example, and no doubt appreciative about some of that, but he has never expressed a sense of being "proud" about being Jewish or any of that from what I've read and heard in interviews with him.
Our past is part of who we are of course...
Ah I hear my wife calling again. Cheers and thanks again! Until I have more time perhaps tomorrow...
For the sake of brevity and not dragging the thread further off-topic, I encourage you to search for some interviews and articles where Donald Fagen talks about Judaism (I believe in a way that demonstrates his pride in his heritage without thinking it makes him superior to anyone else, which is in the same vein as my Jewish pride).
Donald Fagen is not Bob Dylan (for a whole host of reasons, of course). One distinct difference (which does not necessarily deter Jewish pride but can certainly shape it) is that Donald Fagen grew up in moderately to predominantly Jewish areas, so Jewish culture (religious as well as secular) was all around him. The Jewish community in Hibbing, Minnesota (which is almost extinct now) was very small even in its heyday, when Bob Dylan was growing up.
As Tzaph said, it can be insidious because it is not at the conscious level.
What is also insidious is suggesting any learning, knowledge or sharing of facts to be anything but that instead of assuming antisemitism. That I recognize the obvious about how most basketball and football players are black while the majority of quarterbacks, head coaches, management and ownership are white males, does not make me a racist or chauvinist or anything but someone who "calls 'em the way I see 'em" in the most informed, accurate and honest way I know. Nothing I am doing other than at a most conscious level.
Or if I have any facts incorrect or misunderstood, anyone do please address those. Otherwise, let's please stop the insidious unfair and utterly ridiculous false accusations.
For the sake of brevity and not dragging the thread further off-topic, I encourage you to search for some interviews and articles where Donald Fagen talks about Judaism (I believe in a way that demonstrates his pride in his heritage without thinking it makes him superior to anyone else, which is in the same vein as my Jewish pride).
Donald Fagen is not Bob Dylan (for a whole host of reasons, of course). One distinct difference (which does not necessarily deter Jewish pride but can certainly shape it) is that Donald Fagen grew up in moderately to predominantly Jewish areas, so Jewish culture (religious as well as secular) was all around him. The Jewish community in Hibbing, Minnesota (which is almost extinct now) was very small even in its heyday, when Bob Dylan was growing up.
I'm thinking of starting a thread with the title "Off-topic thread," where anyone can move an off-topic discussion from one thread to the "Off-topic thread."
I am curious about your suggestion and somewhat coincidental, because after I signed off yesterday, I thought to come back today and ask you please post a Fagen quote or two that demonstrates what you are describing as his pride in heritage."
I'd say just about every musician I have read about or listened to has made mention of their "roots." Often in a positive way, but I don't understand those words to be a "pride about their heritage" like you seem to be referring to.
I am never shy to tell people my mother is 100% Sicilian when the subject might come up. As a result of that fact, I enjoyed the food she cooked while growing up. Translated what she was saying to my friends, because her accent was too strong for my friends to understand. A good deal about all that I could go on about, but I don't know if anything about any of that demonstrates pride about my heritage. Most people would never know anything about my heritage by just spending time with me. People never suspect I am bilingual either, because I don't "wear any of that on my sleeve" if you know what I mean.
Of course Fagen is not Dylan, and I can't speak about all that Fagen has said, because I haven't read about that like I have about Dylan. I was just making the distintion between those who express pride in their heritage and those who don't so much. Regardless what their heritage might be.
More about that for the Off-topic thread I think I'll start today...
I'm thinking of starting a thread with the title "Off-topic thread," where anyone can move an off-topic discussion from one thread to the "Off-topic thread."
I am curious about your suggestion and somewhat coincidental, because after I signed off yesterday, I thought to come back today and ask you please post a Fagen quote or two that demonstrates what you are describing as his pride in heritage."
I'd say just about every musician I have read about or listened to has made mention of their "roots." Often in a positive way, but I don't understand those words to be a "pride about their heritage" like you seem to be referring to.
I am never shy to tell people my mother is 100% Sicilian when the subject might come up. As a result of that fact, I enjoyed the food she cooked while growing up. Translated what she was saying to my friends, because her accent was too strong for my friends to understand. A good deal about all that I could go on about, but I don't know if anything about any of that demonstrates pride about my heritage. Most people would never know anything about my heritage by just spending time with me. People never suspect I am bilingual either, because I don't "wear any of that on my sleeve" if you know what I mean.
Of course Fagen is not Dylan, and I can't speak about all that Fagen has said, because I haven't read about that like I have about Dylan. I was just making the distintion between those who express pride in their heritage and those who don't so much. Regardless what their heritage might be.
More about that for the Off-topic thread I think I'll start today...
Or it could even be a separate on-topic thread discussing relationship between musicians and songwriters and religion and spirituality. I think that would be very interesting, and it can bear fruitful discussion regarding music and musicality throughout the ages. Either way, I’d be happy to contribute.
Or it could even be a separate on-topic thread discussing relationship between musicians and songwriters and religion and spirituality. I think that would be very interesting, and it can bear fruitful discussion regarding music and musicality throughout the ages. Either way, I’d be happy to contribute.
By all means please do so and be sure to let me know where. I'm reluctant to post the first "Off-topic" comment in my off-topic thread, because I'd like to know it serves others as I hope it might, but wherever. I will follow your lead if you are so inclined, about any topic of interest to you, since it seems we have similar interests and a shared preferred manner in which to discuss them.
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Insidious is the correct word for such subtle antisemitism, Tzaph, because it usually is below the conscious awareness of those who have it, IMO. LearnMe probably feels it is VERY unfair even to suggest it is a factor in his case, as would I.
