The R&S Pantheism Thread (Christianity, Christians, beliefs, belief)
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It is the human condition to always question and wonder. No one really knows anything for sure as far as God, no God, what kind of God, where we go when we die, etc. It's just natural to try and find beliefs that resonate with us. Nothing in that realm is definitive.
also we are dealing with people that are arguing for traits of a god or a certain definition of god.
Most people do not understand that is more about "what is the universe doing" that matches what we see the best. What classifications match what we see going on?
things like biblegod deities just aren't even close. Cosmic mind type stuff is a lot closer. Pantheist is probably the closest thing with the word theist in it. And nothing more complex is as about as rational as a deity claim.
then we have the noise. People e here to discuss political based god claims. Or the word "god" triggers them to instantly say "no way". or the saying things like cosmic mind triggers others to say "See, thats god."
I like that. Divine is like God - always further than we can find. But the Ideal is something to shoot at, even if we seem to be going through a bad patch at the moment.
the bottom line is evidence. When we use only science evidence than the belief will be the same thing the science evidence is describing.
Pantheism and evidence overlap so much that really the only logical ending is "Ok, you call it god and I don't."
anything else is advocating for a statement of belief for god for some other reason than just science and engineering. Maybe one doesn't like the word god, maybe another had a terrible event in their lives at the hands of religion. Maybe people are just born anti-god.
there are a ton people that believe in something and do not challenge the militant atheist on this one. That's why I say you are not here for truth you are here for politics. "just looking for truth" isn't what you are advocating.
There are a host of people that see pantheism as at least logical. They stay silent because they don't want religious people to jump in and run a muck.
We say we are here looking for "the universal truth". well, pantheism has proof. And if we just let them by", just sit by and let people stop science and stop us from saying that science data and god claims can work together because we do not want to deal with theist saying "See, I told you so.". Then looking for "the universal truth" is not what this is about.
Reasonable claims using data end up where the data ends. shunning science and pantheism type gods because "they get us no where" means what exactly? "get us no where" means we are not looking for "universal truths", it means "it doesn't help us advocating for [insert whatever]".
Last edited by Arach Angle; 09-13-2020 at 05:27 AM..
ah ... you read it. lets see how fast you run away this time. Lets look at my "bad patch". Last time you ran in like three post.
when we use science data, the belief and the what the data point to become the same thing.
You say it is meaningless doing that and we need to avoid it. why?
"People that have been here long" say that talking about pantheism as having real proof/evidence often mean these discussions get us no where? what place are we trying to "get to" that these discussions end in no where?
"advocating for atheism" ... so we atheist say "we use clarity, logic, and reason to form our beliefs. "advocating for a statement of belief about god means we are confined to a statement of belief about god ... that is religious. to the list it goes.
Last edited by Arach Angle; 09-13-2020 at 06:28 AM..
you have been spanked, debunked, and sussed out so many times you run even at the sight of an atheist like me.
we don't care about "advocating" for a statement of belief about god. We only care about accuracy. Something you have no trouble, what so ever, fiddling with. When the game is turning ... change the game.
the bottom line is evidence. When we use only science evidence than the belief will be the same thing the science evidence is describing.
Pantheism and evidence overlap so much that really the only logical ending is "Ok, you call it god and I don't."
That would be why pantheism and panentheism are treated differently from all other religions here. The atheists cannot use their favorite tactic and simply demand evidence for the existence of God since under those two religions all existing evidence IS of God. They refuse to abandon their demand for evidence of the existence of God so my Christian Panentheism is barred from arguing against their demands for evidence of the existence of God and I can only argue the Christian aspects. They demand and the forum validates their default demand of "No God exists until proven."
My Christian Panentheism seems to evoke hostility from both atheists and theists primarily because it not only eliminates the need to prove God exists but seems to undermine the anthropomorphic personalization and fear of God endemic to the Christian mainstream. This is largely the result of not understanding what Christian Panentheism IS.
There are two aspects to mainstream Christianity that are conflated and simply obscured - (1) the composition and nature of God and (2) the interpretation of the Creed itself (also called the Gospel).
Panentheism addresses the first aspect and asserts that God is both immanent and transcendent. Immanence means that God is what we consider our physical Reality - God's body. Transcendence means that God's consciousness is beyond our physical Reality and not bound by its limitations - God's mind. As it happens, we are similarly configured with an immanent physical body and a transcendent consciousness - in the image and likeness of God.
The Creedal aspect of Christian Panentheism is reinterpreted from the primitive fear-based "carnal milk" version designed to mitigate the savagery and barbarism of our ancient ancestors - euphemistically called "sin." In contrast to the Godfather-like threat of "believe or else burn in Hell," it appeals to a love of God and each other which is a more expansive spiritual "solid food" consistent with and compatible with modern knowledge, understanding of the evolution of human nature, and science.
Christian Panentheism still recognizes Jesus as our Savior but NOT from any punishment from God but from the consequences of our own failures to love as God loves. Jesus is as human as we are and that is how His perfect achievement of God's love in His human consciousness relieved the rest of us of the need to achieve His perfection. It is why God no longer counts our so-called "sins" (missing the mark) against us. His perfection (Grace) as a part of the collective human consciousness provides cover for our imperfections.
Christian Panentheism still recognizes Jesus as equal to God the Father but not in the absurd and irrational way explained in the concept of the Trinity. When we see Jesus we see the Father because His consciousness (the "mind of Christ") is identical to (in perfect resonance with) the "mind of God." His human consciousness is what was "born again" (resurrected) as Spirit (Holy Spirit) and resides with us in our consciousness as the Comforter sent in His name to guide us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts." Jesus is our human "tuning fork" for God's love which is why Christians appeal to God through Jesus.
That would be why pantheism and panentheism are treated differently from all other religions here. The atheists cannot use their favorite tactic and simply demand evidence for the existence of God since under those two religions all existing evidence IS of God. They refuse to abandon their demand for evidence of the existence of God so my Christian Panentheism is barred from arguing against their demands for evidence of the existence of God and I can only argue the Christian aspects. They demand and the forum validates their default demand of "No God exists until proven."
You’re right about why pantheism and panentheism are treated differently from all other religions on R&S. This is yet one one bit of evidence that R&S is biased toward atheism. Like Arach always says, militant atheists (anti-theists) want to exclude any topic from discussion that could in any way weaken the case for Naturalistic atheism. They are so insecure in their beliefs that they endeavour to exclude any “foot in the door” for belief in anything beyond the natural, physical world. They tolerate belief in some of these things by others, so long as those people never try to justify their beliefs, and as long as they are actively anti-Christian (which is their primary concern).
Anti-theists wouldn’t care if others held pantheistic and panentheistic beliefs if they never try to make a case for their beliefs. The fact that there are some here who are willing to make a case for pantheistic and panentheistic beliefs is what rattles anti-theists. They want those people to keep their mouths shut and focus on ridiculing Christianity.
You’re right about why pantheism and panentheism are treated differently from all other religions on R&S. This is yet one one bit of evidence that R&S is biased toward atheism. Like Arach always says, militant atheists (anti-theists) want to exclude any topic from discussion that could in any way weaken the case for Naturalistic atheism. They are so insecure in their beliefs that they endeavour to exclude any “foot in the door” for belief in anything beyond the natural, physical world. They tolerate belief in some of these things by others, so long as those people never try to justify their beliefs, and as long as they are actively anti-Christian (which is their primary concern).
Anti-theists wouldn’t care if others held pantheistic and panentheistic beliefs if they never try to make a case for their beliefs. The fact that there are some here who are willing to make a case for pantheistic and panentheistic beliefs is what rattles anti-theists. They want those people to keep their mouths shut and focus on ridiculing Christianity.
let tell you why its a little worse than bias.
They allow clearly less valid god claims to be talked about. They do that because its so easy to attack religion in the states using deity claims.
They have to avoid any other claims based in science because science and politics can't coexist. In fact, science and politics are at odds far more than science and religion. They hide that fact.
shun/avoid/obscure any god claims that are science evidence based. Is that "Bias"? I don't know, would we call hilter, stalin, mao, ISIS, evangelical Christians bias?
you are right, how do we handle (classify) atheist that get seriously annoyed at atheist that can make a case for pantheist god?
atheism doesn't have sects, but these atheist here aren't like most atheist I know. But then again, I don't hang out with people that have sick statement of belief about god.
You’re right about why pantheism and panentheism are treated differently from all other religions on R&S. This is yet one one bit of evidence that R&S is biased toward atheism. Like Arach always says, militant atheists (anti-theists) want to exclude any topic from discussion that could in any way weaken the case for Naturalistic atheism. They are so insecure in their beliefs that they endeavour to exclude any “foot in the door” for belief in anything beyond the natural, physical world. They tolerate belief in some of these things by others, so long as those people never try to justify their beliefs, and as long as they are actively anti-Christian (which is their primary concern).
Anti-theists wouldn’t care if others held pantheistic and panentheistic beliefs if they never try to make a case for their beliefs. The fact that there are some here who are willing to make a case for pantheistic and panentheistic beliefs is what rattles anti-theists. They want those people to keep their mouths shut and focus on ridiculing Christianity.
Can't argue with you about this obvious truth, IWMN.
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The R&S Pantheism Thread
