Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This is a dangerous post because of the recent reaction to my views leading me to leave this forum. Unfortunately, religious beliefs are the ones most directly connected to the social-psychological needs that drive selective perceptions and cognitive dissonance. They are also very emotionally volatile and tend to be a source of spark and tinder in social settings. My experiences on this forum over many years led me to expect intelligent, non-violent, and open-minded reactions until recently. My complete views have been thoroughly presented in my many existing posts, but I personally find the retention of magical thinking and ancient ignorance about Christ and His role sufficiently troubling that I want to provide a concise alternative narrative summarizing the Christian aspects of them.
Perhaps an anonymous example of a somewhat irreverent summary of the magical thinking typically passing for faith in Christ will make my concerns about the prevailing Christian narrative clear. Under Christianity we are to believe that God essentially said:
“I'm going to create man and woman and they will commit original sin. Next - I'm going to impregnate a teenage girl with myself as her child so that I may be born as a human. Later - I will kill myself as a blood sacrifice to myself so I can forgive them and save them from the sin I originally condemned them for.”
If this actually makes any intellectual sense to anyone, I would be astounded. I am fairly certain, though, that the fundamentalists among us will simply quote:
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Intellectually, I have no problem with the cross but the current magical interpretation of its significance is simply preposterous, IMO.
To summarize and repeat my view of things Christian, I believe that Christ came to fix a deficiency in US as a species. We were NOT achieving anything remotely like agape love for life or one another. Jesus was our "designated hitter" and He achieved a Grand Slam demonstrating pure agape love under the most egregious circumstances even up to His death. He told us that God IS Spirit and that God IS agape love so God's Holy Spirit IS agape love. Christ brought God's Holy Spirit of agape love to His HUMAN consciousness. His teachings about the TRUE NATURE of God were so contrary to what our ancestors' religious leaders believed about God that they rejected Him and demanded His crucifixion.
Jesus had already said when you see me you see the Father so He used the opportunity to UNAMBIGUOUSLY reveal and emphasize the TRUE NATURE of God.
John 10:30 King James Version (KJV)
30 I and my Father are one.
He voluntarily submitted to the brutality of our ancestors. He endured their brutality because "they knew not what they did," (also known as ignorance). He loved them and all of us including His torturers and murderers (and smote no one!). "No greater love . . ." This was supposed to be unambiguous proof of God's TRUE NATURE if you had faith and believed that Jesus embodied the true nature of God and was the Son of God.
But our ancestors were too steeped in the beliefs about blood sacrifices to appease a wrathful God. They interpreted His loving sacrifice of His life to our ancestors' brutality as a blood sacrifice to God!!! This was not really their fault and was fully expected by God and Jesus. Knowing what they would do to Him is what made it a sacrifice for Jesus. The sacrificial mindset is ancient and crosses generations and cultures. It is a primitive and long-standing belief in the need to assuage God and was practiced frequently by our species' ancestors, not just the ancient Israelites. This mistaken belief about God’s motives and actions in Christianity is the result of reading the OT under the veil of ignorance (blind minds) Christ came to lift.
2 Corinthians 3:14-17
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
It was this very spiritually immature and primitive belief about appeasement through sacrifice that was described in the fable about Noah. According to the flood story, Noah actually sacrificed the very animals he was told to save from extinction!! That caused God in frustration to acknowledge that our beliefs were the result of our species' evil imagination and spiritual immaturity (Youth).
Genesis 8:20-21 (King James Version)
20And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth
God is God is God, period, but the ONLY TRUE REVEALED GOD for Christians is the one revealed by the example and teachings of Jesus Christ, NOT the one described by our ancestors in the OT. The OT told us to expect Christ who would reveal God to us. It is the God that was believed in by our ancient ancestors that is the problem corrupting Christ's Gospel. It is why Christ’s loving sacrifice and shedding of His blood to their brutality was mistakenly thought to be a blood sacrifice to appease God.
There was never any price to pay. There was no atonement. There was a need for our species to achieve "at-one-ment" with God. To do that our species had to evolve spiritually enough to attain "perfect resonance" with God's consciousness (Holy Spirit of agape love) in a HUMAN consciousness which NONE of us were capable of achieving (sin = missing the mark). Our species would have remained eternally separated from God because of our sins (missing the mark). But by the time of Jesus, the "schoolmaster stage" under the Law using fear of God as motivation had produced our species' ability for self-control of our baser urges - the beginning of wisdom. Jesus pointed out that now the “fields were ripe for the harvest” and capable of being motivated by agape love instead of fear.
Romans 7:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
While Jesus was with us in physical form only those who were actually around Him had the benefit of His Holy Spirit (human consciousness), teachings and example. Upon His physical death, Christ’s HUMAN consciousness was "born again" as Spirit (as ours will be upon our death). As a "resurrected" Spirit in a spiritual body, His human consciousness became available to all human consciousness as the Comforter sent in His name to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts" under the New Covenant. THAT is how His Holy Spirit is available to all human beings despite their beliefs. Some consider it their conscience. Most ignore His guidance and follow their own self-interest but He is available to all of us.
John 16:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
John 14:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Christ's torture and death were inevitable during the era in which He brought His message of reconciliation and His commands to "love God and each other" and repent when we don’t. Unfortunately, the blood sacrificing religious leaders were expecting (and demanding) a wrathful, smiting King and God as the Messiah to lead them out from under the Roman rule. Jesus was NOT who they expected. They could NOT allow Him to influence the people. Even Judas probably believed Jesus was the Son of a smiting, powerful God. He probably thought Jesus would be forced to display His Godly powers once they tried to scourge and kill Him. When Jesus didn't display His power and smite His torturers, that is probably what drove Judas to despair.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19 New International Version (NIV)
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
In other words, Jesus had achieved what we could not, bringing God's Holy Sp[irit of agape love to His human consciousness reconciling our entire species to God. Our sins (failures) became irrelevant. Now as long as we follow Christ's instructions to love God and each other every day and repent when we don't we obtain the cover for our imperfections (sins/failures) of His perfect agape love for us all (called Grace). If we do NOT follow Christ's instructions to "love God and each other" and repent when we don’t we will reap what we sow, but no more and no less than we sow.
God Bless you all in Christ's love.
Amen, brother just wish more people could see/understand this.
I thought you might be back (the place is habit -forming, ain't it) . And there's nothing wrong with your post as regards suitability for posting. Just as regards discarding what seems not to make sense, even to a believer and adapting the rest to what seems plausible to you. It isn't the first time sorta-Christians did that.
I don't buy the leaning Curve theory for a number of reasons, one being that it is not teaching us from the correct textbook and another that it requires an incredible mental leap of adaptation of story to theory to get your conclusion out of it.
So, while I endorse the need for more tolerance and understanding ("Love" if you like, but not Agape with eyes blank, please) but religion ain't the way to do it.
And welcome back, old mate. And provided you don't talk down to people as though they were ignorant turds in the gutter and you were the Cosmic Mind itself, you should be ok.
Well there is the problem almost all Christians have, the text book. We are not guided by a book but rather by the holy spirit within. When one walks in love one walks with God and God with them.
Religion has never solved anything. Love (agape or otherwise) does not need t be religious based..Christ is a story for ALL of humanity--regardless of circumstances.
When Christ say BELIEVE IN ME and CONFESS and you will be saved----only humans could take that and make it a secret club complete with passwords, secret hand shakes and indoctrinations.
.
Yup, it is such a shame people made it into an exclusive club.
Well there is the problem almost all Christians have, the text book. We are not guided by a book but rather by the holy spirit within. When one walks in love one walks with God and God with them.
Absolutely...
GOD STILL SPEAKS TODAY! No 2000+ year old book written by men could ever be applied to EVERY individual today.
Christ said He will send the HOLY SPIRIT, He did not say He was sending Gideon's Bible nor did Jesus say anything about Zondervan....
Well there is the problem almost all Christians have, the text book. We are not guided by a book but rather by the holy spirit within. When one walks in love one walks with God and God with them.
Is that why it is all true even if the book is wrong?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules
My point is I think it can be difficult to discuss "spiritual" things on this religious forum without it involving traditional religion.
In fact it is easy. One simply declines to credit one religion and more than another and one easily talks about a possible creator, Cosmic mind - pantheist or deist -god. But it seems to me that some people just have to drag the trappings of organized religion and Holy books into it.
And I'd better leave it there - this really isn't a thread for me.
My point is I think it can be difficult to discuss "spiritual" things on this religious forum without it involving traditional religion.
yeah. to try and not talk about anything in these matters mean you will hit religion. The rules that we find acceptable without god are just as acceptable with the word god. I would leave the word out, but to think you can leave out things like connections, love, compassion and understanding (all in traditional religion too) and not touch on religion is stupid.
Is that why it is all true even if the book is wrong?
In fact it is easy. One simply declines to credit one religion and more than another and one easily talks about a possible creator, Cosmic mind - pantheist or deist -god. But it seems to me that some people just have to drag the trappings of organized religion and Holy books into it.
And I'd better leave it there - this really isn't a thread for me.
yeah. i try and talk without anything related to god and you call me a theist, sortagod, and any other traditional religion thing you can to advance your cause.
Your area is deny anything religion can use and try and convince others to stop getting in your way. try and convince them to hide rational conclusion for the greater good, your greater good that is.
still trying to figure out what " ... operative atheism ..." means. I know its something shady, i just can't figure it out.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I thought you might be back (the place is habit -forming, ain't it) . And there's nothing wrong with your post as regards suitability for posting. Just as regards discarding what seems not to make sense, even to a believer and adapting the rest to what seems plausible to you. It isn't the first time sorta-Christians did that.
