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The eloquent Mordant brought up an excellent point in some thread around here, pointing out that when Christians want to beat their chests and show that when it comes to religious followers, they sport impressive numbers. Somehow, this indicates that so many people CANNOT be wrong and must be onto something atheists and other unbelievers are just missing. For some, this gives them cause to roll out the ad populum fallacy.
That's the surface argument because for those of us on the sidelines, we know that many Christians put no serious stock in such numbers. It is all window dressing to prove some flawed notion. Why? Well, once these same Christians sit down for tea (let's just say, like on the Christian forum), it becomes quickly evident that not all Christians see each other as equal. For many, if you do NOT believe as they do, the title "Christian," another Christian might call themselves, becomes VERY suspect. With the wave of a doctrine, one group of Christians will discount an entire other segment of the faith. Now those numbers don't look as impressive.
When I was a Christian, I remember I (like other Christians) had this rule that "as long as another Christian held that Jesus was the son of God and savior of the world," then that was all that mattered. But after we would sit down for a bible study or some back patting and find out that they held other doctrinal differences, well, things would get a little awkward. For example, I was a trinitarian Christian, but my beloved mother was not (I became a Christian before her). In my book, she was practicing heresy, akin to that of the disparaged Jehovah's Witnesses, so while I love(d) her dearly, in the back of mind, she was not and could not really be a "True Christian" because she did not believe Jesus was God the son which, in my book, was an absolute MUST to be considered a Christian in the truest sense of the word. This used to worry me and caused a tremendous amount of conflict and stress despite her being one of the most devout women I knew.
So, when you consider some of these things, those billions of Christians are not even sure that the other Christians are within those billions are even Christians. Interesting world they live in.
I think this is true.Just as the "Nones" are not really atheist - as Christians never fail to point out. Why even some of those in the public eye who are really for sure atheists and speak out against religious hogwash call themselves "agnotics" so as to avoid the Atheist label.
So the HUGE majority in the world are those who just want to be left alone and either go along with lip-service or token observance to their local religion or don't bother and put "none". These are floating voters, and I believe they could come to be aware of the rationale and issues and come either to see that they would be far better off being able to opt out of religious influence and to move on from putting "none" to having a better reason than "I'm not interested" for putting "none".
Yes, there are 2 billion people worldwide who identify as Christian, but how many of those people actually take the religion seriously? Also, there's the bitter divide between the more orthodox forms of Christianity and the more liberal forms.
Yes, there are 2 billion people worldwide who identify as Christian, but how many of those people actually take the religion seriously? Also, there's the bitter divide between the more orthodox forms of Christianity and the more liberal forms.
Thanks, Freak. That corrects my post which lost the plot a bit. IITM's OP was about for sure Christian believers who rather excommunicated anyone who didn't share their doctrines. I was going off onto talking about census Christians.
Forgive me an anecdote, but census Christianity always reminds me of this. As a kid at school I remember one of my classmates making some critical point about religion. The teacher asked "What religion are you?" The kid said "C of E" as a kneejerk reaction. That was apparently regarded as winning the teacher the debate, but I recall that it resolved me to say ever after "No religion".
The eloquent Mordant brought up an excellent point in some thread around here, pointing out that when Christians want to beat their chests and show that when it comes to religious followers, they sport impressive numbers. Somehow, this indicates that so many people CANNOT be wrong and must be onto something atheists and other unbelievers are just missing. For some, this gives them cause to roll out the ad populum fallacy.
That's the surface argument because for those of us on the sidelines, we know that many Christians put no serious stock in such numbers. It is all window dressing to prove some flawed notion. Why? Well, once these same Christians sit down for tea (let's just say, like on the Christian forum), it becomes quickly evident that not all Christians see each other as equal. For many, if you do NOT believe as they do, the title "Christian," another Christian might call themselves, becomes VERY suspect. With the wave of a doctrine, one group of Christians will discount an entire other segment of the faith. Now those numbers don't look as impressive.
When I was a Christian, I remember I (like other Christians) had this rule that "as long as another Christian held that Jesus was the son of God and savior of the world," then that was all that mattered. But after we would sit down for a bible study or some back patting and find out that they held other doctrinal differences, well, things would get a little awkward. For example, I was a trinitarian Christian, but my beloved mother was not (I became a Christian before her). In my book, she was practicing heresy, akin to that of the disparaged Jehovah's Witnesses, so while I love(d) her dearly, in the back of mind, she was not and could not really be a "True Christian" because she did not believe Jesus was God the son which, in my book, was an absolute MUST to be considered a Christian in the truest sense of the word. This used to worry me and caused a tremendous amount of conflict and stress despite her being one of the most devout women I knew.
So, when you consider some of these things, those billions of Christians are not even sure that the other Christians are within those billions are even Christians. Interesting world they live in.
The eloquent Mordant brought up an excellent point in some thread around here, pointing out that when Christians want to beat their chests and show that when it comes to religious followers, they sport impressive numbers. Somehow, this indicates that so many people CANNOT be wrong and must be onto something atheists and other unbelievers are just missing. For some, this gives them cause to roll out the ad populum fallacy.
I have not seen this very much, to be honest. I usually say that at least in the US, something like 70% - 80% believe in God. I will allude to the fact that culturally, we predominantly identify as Christians - -but I don't point to that as a proof for Christianity.
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That's the surface argument because for those of us on the sidelines, we know that many Christians put no serious stock in such numbers. It is all window dressing to prove some flawed notion. Why? Well, once these same Christians sit down for tea (let's just say, like on the Christian forum), it becomes quickly evident that not all Christians see each other as equal. For many, if you do NOT believe as they do, the title "Christian," another Christian might call themselves, becomes VERY suspect. With the wave of a doctrine, one group of Christians will discount an entire other segment of the faith. Now those numbers don't look as impressive.
And, of course, there is a whole group of people that believe nothing that Biblical Christianity teaches, and their only claim to Christianity is that maybe they talk about Jesus occasionally when they go to their gathering place. But we are called bigots if we dare to suggest their faith is not the same faith that the apostles died for.
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When I was a Christian, I remember I (like other Christians) had this rule that "as long as another Christian held that Jesus was the son of God and savior of the world," then that was all that mattered. But after we would sit down for a bible study or some back patting and find out that they held other doctrinal differences, well, things would get a little awkward. For example, I was a trinitarian Christian, but my beloved mother was not (I became a Christian before her). In my book, she was practicing heresy, akin to that of the disparaged Jehovah's Witnesses, so while I love(d) her dearly, in the back of mind, she was not and could not really be a "True Christian" because she did not believe Jesus was God the son which, in my book, was an absolute MUST to be considered a Christian in the truest sense of the word. This used to worry me and caused a tremendous amount of conflict and stress despite her being one of the most devout women I knew.
It should have worried you. The apostles died over such doctrines. Church councils were held to figure that stuff out, and they condemned those that didn't believe it.
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So, when you consider some of these things, those billions of Christians are not even sure that the other Christians are within those billions are even Christians. Interesting world they live in.
And, of course, there is a whole group of people that believe nothing that Biblical Christianity teaches, and their only claim to Christianity is that maybe they talk about Jesus occasionally when they go to their gathering place.
I can't think of a single solitary church that claims to be Christian that just "talks about Jesus occasionally when they go to their gathering place." I know that in my church, which you do not believe to be Christian, Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice is at the center of our worship. (By the way, it's no huge challenge for me to spot a comment directed at my church, even if you don't come right out and mention it by name.)
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But we are called bigots if we dare to suggest their faith is not the same faith that the apostles died for....The apostles died over such doctrines.
So, let's get down to specifics here, Viz. Exactly which doctrines did the apostles die over? Let's see if I believe them or not. Please don't dodge the question by using the excuse that you don't want to be accused of denominational bashing. All I want is for you to tell us what doctrines the apostles died for, and provide some substantiating evidence for your claim.
Yeah, I failed to mention that there is a segment of Christianity that wears it as a badge of honor that they are in a small Remnant group and are thus, the true Christians. The other 1, 999,999,995 are not true Christians like they are, end times prophecy considered
I can't think of a single solitary church that claims to be Christian that just "talks about Jesus occasionally when they go to their gathering place."
There are a lot of liberal Christians that don't really live out their faith. I've sat in liberal Presbyterian churches that barely mentioned Jesus. One woman came to my church and mentioned she didn't like another church in the area because they didn't pray once the entire hour. There really is not an emphasis in a lot of churches on Jesus.
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I know that in my church, which you do not believe to be Christian, Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice is at the center of our worship. (By the way, it's no huge challenge for me to spot a comment directed at my church, even if you don't come right out and mention it by name.)
I really wasn't trying to poke you in the eye by that comment. Please try to realize my life does not revolve around offending you. But yes, you and I do have some pretty major differences of opinion on theology.
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So, let's get down to specifics here, Viz. Exactly which doctrines did the apostles die over? Let's see if I believe them or not.
Mind you--I'm not going after you specifically. If you want to take offense at it and think that I was...so be it. You'd be wrong.
I'm not sure this is really the place to begin listing off the issues with your church. But it can be said that in the almost 200 years your church has been around, they have only recently even tried to call themselves main-stream Christians. Your founder was quite open about the fact that he thought all of Christianity was apostate and that your church had NOTHING in common with them.
I think you are unwittingly helping to make the OP's point.
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