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Who Brought the Capernaum Centurion’s Request to Jesus?
It’s the centurion himself who comes.
Matthew 8:5: And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him.
The centurion sends some elders.
Luke 7:3: And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant.
The centurion sends friends. Same book, same chapter as "elders."
Luke 7:6: Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof.
Out of context? Transcriptual errors?
Or just another case of a biblical's right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing?
We see here another case of Luke addressing material found in Matthew and nowhere else and putting a different spin on it, as a result of Luke’s orientation to a Gentile audience versus Matthew’s audience of Jewish followers of Jesus.
A centurion is an army officer in charge of a century (‘company’) of about a hundred men. In the putative time of the story, sometime around 30 CE, and the place (Capernaum), this would be the army of Herod Antipater (Antipas) composed of foreign mercenaries acting as police and tax enforcers, and not the Roman Army. At that relatively peaceful time, Roman soldiers would not have been present in this region until after Herod Agrippa (successor to Antipas) died in 44 CE with no adult heir. The province then reverted to direct Roman control.
Matthew and Luke both wrote half a century and more after the time of Jesus. The question is if they were thinking in terms of a Roman centurion or a non-Roman Gentile. In the aftermath of the terrible Jewish Revolt a decade or so after they wrote, it seems unlikely that they intended to portray a Roman army officer in a favorable light. This is especially the case with Luke who unlike Matthew pointedly avoided referring to Jesus as King. That could have turned off his Gentile audience by reminding them of the recent messianic-movement inspired Jewish Revolt and its terrible outcome. Matthew’s Jewish audience would have no trouble distinguishing the Jesus movement from the violent Zealot movement that started the revolt.
Based on these considerations, I believe we can take it as the case Matthew and Luke were most likely thinking in terms of the historically accurate picture of a Gentile but non-Roman centurion.
In this context, it is informative to see the entire passage from Matthew.
Quote:
Matthew 8
5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”
7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”
8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.
As noted in the OP, the Gentile centurion comes to Jesus and gives his speech. Even though he is an officer with men under him, he humbles himself by coming personally to Jesus. He trusts Jesus to heal his servant at a distance. Jesus remarks that many will come from east and west (Gentiles clearly) to “the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven”, that is, Gentiles coming to a Jewish Jesus. But the “subjects of the kingdom” will be thrown outside. Who are these “subjects of the kingdom”? They are those Jews who reject Jesus. (Surely Jesus would not be telling a Jewish audience that they will be rejected.) At the time Matthew wrote, the Pharisees who left Jerusalem before the siege are busy building Rabbinic Judaism, the main competition to the Jesus movement as the true heir of historic Judaism in the post-Temple era
Contrast this with Luke.
Quote:
Luke 7
1 When Jesus had finished saying all this to the people who were listening, he entered Capernaum. 2 There a centurion’s servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. 3 The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4 When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, “This man deserves to have you do this, 5 because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue.” 6 So Jesus went with them.
He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: “Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7 That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
9 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” 10 Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.
Again, as noted in the OP, the centurion does not come to Jesus. Instead he sends some Jewish elders to convey his request. They portray the centurion as friendly to the Jews and deserving to having his request granted. This underscores the notion that the centurion is a Gentile, but not a Roman. This subtlety would be appreciated by Matthew’s Jewish audience without saying it explicitly because they would know the historical context. But it would be lost on Luke’s Gentile audience unless emphasized.
Jesus goes with the elders to the centurion’s house. On the way they were met by friends of the centurion who repeated the ‘not worthy’ and ‘man under authority’ speech from Matthew. This speech was quite impressive coming from the centurion himself. But it sounds a bit odd as a quote from the man delivered by friends. Luke retained it in order to preserve the essential faith-based healing at a distance theme. But he changed the context in order to not have the Gentiles come to a Jewish Jesus but Jesus come toward the Gentiles, who accept him on faith. To make this point clear, Luke omits the language about Gentiles coming to the feast of Abraham et al.
As many here already know, it is my contention that – contrary to Q document theory – Luke had read Matthew and intentionally redirected the message to a Gentile audience. This would explain the close similarities of these two passages. But that could also be explained by them having a common source. In terms of my above analysis it does not really matter. It is still the case (IMHO) that Luke is re-orienting a story that Matthew sees from a Jewish-centric point of view to Luke’s Gentile audience.
My take on the centurion in question, and his knowledge and/or relationship with Jesus:
The original Greek text describes Joseph as a "techton", an artisan skilled in the working of wood and stone, and maybe metal. Such a person would, among other things, fashion farm implements, things like ploughs, shears, pruning instruments.
Not to far a walk from Nazareth, the Romans were constructing the new city of Sepphoris I believe that Joseph and his sons were hired to work on the construction, and that every morning they slung their toolbags over their shoulders, and made the one hour walk, bag lunches in hands. Well, during lunch hour, Jesus preached, debated, engaged those around him. IMHO, the centurion was in command of the detail who were providing security to the construction site. Perhaps he knew Jesus personally. Especially if Jesus had invited him into a discussion or two over time.
I mean, after all, why would just any old Roman army officer know of Jesus?
Yes this is all speculation on my part. Yet it fits. A man who once upon a time knew Jesus, and later hears of the miracles, approaches his old acquaintance and asks for help.
As for the so called contradictions, they are not. The argument is based upon out of social context phrases based on texts that were written at least 50 years after the fact. 50 years ago I was 15. Can you trust anything my brothers and sisters say about anything regarding my father and mother based upon memories 50 years old?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckmann
....,
As for the so called contradictions, they are not. The argument is based upon out of social context phrases based on texts that were written at least 50 years after the fact. 50 years ago I was 15. Can you trust anything my brothers and sisters say about anything regarding my father and mother based upon memories 50 years old?
I bet you're not claiming inerrancy though are you?
Why? Why would you hold a 1st Century writer to your standards?
By any reasonable standards, that these versions contradict in such an obvious way undermines the claim to their being eyewitness testimony. John's version and Mark not having one at all pretty much locks it down. and that is one of many such varying contradictions that add up the gospels being anything but eyewitness.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 02-18-2015 at 01:24 PM..
We are the ones that recognize that the text has variances, and we are the ones that recognize that culturally, and in that genre, those are not contradictions. You guys are the ones rocking back and forth chanting "nuh-uh!", hoping that it is a contradiction. Because without the smokescreen of supposed contradictions, you might be asked to take a hard look at your own life and beliefs.
Exactly. I always found it funny that for a book which atheists claim is nothing more than just a collection of fairy tales, they sure dedicate a ton of time picking it apart, verse by verse. If you lose your faith because two verses don't perfectly agree with each other according to the modern English language then you didn't have much faith to begin with.
Before arguing one way or another, my opinion is that one MUST look at the original Greek text, and the meaning and context. Depending upon an English translation leads to these kinds of disputes.
For enough. But I am going with the translations from KJV to NIV and they all say the same general story. Translation -shopping does not help here. Mark has the centurion talk to Jesus himself; Luke has him send Elders and ..let me check...yes Jesus doesn't meet him at all; he sends a messenger (well he has to, after sending Elders, Luke can hardly having him go himself, anyway). Instead he opts for an elaborate message which is what he says directly to Jesus in Matthew. It all speaks of Luke reworking the same story that Matthew had as he sees a problem (rightly or wrongly) in a centurion talking to Jesus (they could both have had some Greek).
This of course only means that Matthew was the original of the two stories and you can say that was the correct one if you like. But it tells you something about Luke rewriting his text as he saw fit.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 02-18-2015 at 01:55 PM..
As noted in the OP, the Gentile centurion comes to Jesus and gives his speech. Even though he is an officer with men under him, he humbles himself by coming personally to Jesus. He trusts Jesus to heal his servant at a distance. Jesus remarks that many will come from east and west (Gentiles clearly) to “the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven”, that is, Gentiles coming to a Jewish Jesus. But the “subjects of the kingdom” will be thrown outside. Who are these “subjects of the kingdom”? They are those Jews who reject Jesus. (Surely Jesus would not be telling a Jewish audience that they will be rejected.) At the time Matthew wrote, the Pharisees who left Jerusalem before the siege are busy building Rabbinic Judaism, the main competition to the Jesus movement as the true heir of historic Judaism in the post-Temple era
Contrast this with Luke.
Again, there is nothing in the verse that specifically says the centurion had a face to face encounter with Jesus. It doesn't say that the centurion replied directly to Jesus. You have a dialogue exchange in Matthew which still could have taken place via third parties.
My take on the centurion in question, and his knowledge and/or relationship with Jesus:
The original Greek text describes Joseph as a "techton", an artisan skilled in the working of wood and stone, and maybe metal. Such a person would, among other things, fashion farm implements, things like ploughs, shears, pruning instruments.
Not to far a walk from Nazareth, the Romans were constructing the new city of Sepphoris I believe that Joseph and his sons were hired to work on the construction, and that every morning they slung their toolbags over their shoulders, and made the one hour walk, bag lunches in hands. Well, during lunch hour, Jesus preached, debated, engaged those around him. IMHO, the centurion was in command of the detail who were providing security to the construction site. Perhaps he knew Jesus personally. Especially if Jesus had invited him into a discussion or two over time.
I mean, after all, why would just any old Roman army officer know of Jesus?
Yes this is all speculation on my part. Yet it fits. A man who once upon a time knew Jesus, and later hears of the miracles, approaches his old acquaintance and asks for help.
As for the so called contradictions, they are not. The argument is based upon out of social context phrases based on texts that were written at least 50 years after the fact. 50 years ago I was 15. Can you trust anything my brothers and sisters say about anything regarding my father and mother based upon memories 50 years old?
Many people think of Nazareth as being in the middle of nowhere. As you correctly point out, it was a satellite village of the Roman administration center of Sepphoris then under construction. Joseph would likely have taken his son with him as soon as he was big enough to hold a tool in order to learn the trade. A centurion is nominally an army officer in charge of a company of combat soldiers. But considered as a rank rather than a specific occupation, it could very well refer to the officer in charge of an engineering company. Roman engineers were highly skilled and used local labor wherever possible to multiply their efforts.
Now Capernaum is about 20 miles from Nazareth. We infer from the passage that the officer did not live in Capernaum. It is not at all unreasonable that the man went to Capernaum (or sent to Capernaum, whichever) to ask Jesus for help. The idea of a Roman rather than merely Gentile officer asking Jesus for help becomes reasonable if they already knew each other.
Totally OT aside: During the post-invasion sweep across France in WW2, a Colonel of the Engineering Corps came to Patton (a military history fanatic who used the maps of Caesar's roads because his engineers would have picked routes least likely to flood). The Colonel apologized that it took him four hours longer to build a bridge than Caesar's engineers did at the same place. Patton told him that was alright because Caesar's bridge did not have to hold tanks.
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