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With there being clear signs of water existing elsewhere, it is likely only a matter of time before biological life of some sort is found.
An interesting article in the Mormon newspaper, Deseret News.
For atheist, it is not an issue at all. As the article suggests, nor would it be an issue for Buddhists. However, how would Southern Baptists react? How would they and other fundamentalists try and square the circle that their god created life only here on earth?
Discuss.
Given the demonstrated abilities of religions to deny, ignore, or conveniently accomodate myriad discoveries that would logically cause them problems, dealing with alien life would be child's play.
Frankly, the way they've dealt with evolution seems to me a solid template for precisely how they'd deal with alien life.
Given the demonstrated abilities of religions to deny, ignore, or conveniently accomodate myriad discoveries that would logically cause them problems, dealing with alien life would be child's play.
Frankly, the way they've dealt with evolution seems to me a solid template for precisely how they'd deal with alien life.
You mean curling up into the fetal position with hands clasped to ears and chants of "NOT LISTEN-ING!!?"
The Bible's cosmology isn't sophisticated or accurate enough to even predict that it might be necessary to deal with extraterrestrial life. We've discussed this in more than one thread before. The Bible sees the "firmament" as a sort of dome anchored in the "foundations of the earth" which provides a sky upon which celestial objects somehow manifest and move about. Heaven is in or above that firmament and hell is below the surface of the earth. Earth, heaven and hell is all there really is so far as the Bible is concerned.
A geocentric cosmology was assumed from this throughout most of the "common era" at least until Copernicus and Galileo came along and upset those assumptions (and paid the price for doing so). The church resisted moving away from a geocentric system less because any of their theology would have been invalidated by it directly, than because it offended the subjective notion that the earth is the center of the cosmos and the stage upon which the drama of redemption is acted out. Over the several centuries since heliocentrism was proven, the church has grown accustomed to the notion that the earth is but one planet orbiting an unremarkable star in an unimportant arm of a smallish galaxy amongst billions of other galaxies. This is tolerable only because we have not yet discovered actual extra-terrestrial life. It will be another body blow if it can be shown that life itself is not unique to earth. Again, not because it undermines a verse in the Bible somewhere that says, "behold, god hath created life on the Earth alone, it existeth nowhere else". Because, again, the Bible doesn't even contemplate "anywhere else" other than in the context of heaven and hell. It's not capable of having that concern. But it is still not something that theists would prefer, because it will make the Earth that much less a special showcase of god's favor and interest. It will shrink the remaining gaps in which god hides.
I have related the story before of how I made an offhanded side remark in a debate on another site with a fairly prominent ID advocate, concerning the possibility of discovering life elsewhere in our solar system. I was surprised at the virulent reaction to the very idea that I got from this person, to the point that they said that if any form of life, however humble, were discovered elsewhere in this solar system, it would have to have come from earth --some sort of transpermia caused by the upheavals of the Flood. In other words, Creationists are fretful enough about this issue that at least some of them have already gotten out ahead of it and are ready with their trademark crackpot theories. Perhaps young people have asked after the possibility before, I don't know. Regardless, it makes some fundamentalists positively apoplectic to even contemplate the notion.
(I could also predict that any probe that discovers life would have to deal with the possibility of cross-contamination from the probe itself, if that discovered life were at all similar to known life forms on Earth. This is actually a legitimate concern, as living sea plankton have supposedly been scraped off the OUTSIDE of the windows of the International Space Station already -- Sea plankton found alive on outside of International Space Station? : SCIENCE : Tech Times -- although this cuts both ways as it once again shows at least lower life forms to be surprisingly tenacious and adaptable to hostile environments in which we didn't think they could survive, which makes life evolving on other worlds all the MORE probable).
At any rate ... would theists generally and inherently have an issue with this? Outside of fundamentalism, my guess is no. I think they'd have a mild preference against it, nothing more. Indeed, some people are inherently upset at the idea of life on other worlds for reasons that appear unconnected with theism; I would not even automatically assume that aliens would not pose an existential threat, or even that microorganisms from outside Earth couldn't wipe out human life if we had no immunity to them.
As to atheists having some sort of existential crisis if intelligent aliens were discovered to "believe in god" -- this would not challenge me at all. If humans believe in deities, why might not other self aware species have the same tendencies? It would be no more disturbing than discovering that they have two eyes or two legs or speak with vocal chords or have some other characteristics in common with us. It would be proof that god is an evolved / emergent notion in a self aware species, but not proof of god him/her/itself. What might be a little more challenging for me is if they independently evolved a belief in a specific earth god such as Jesus or Jehovah (or Krishna or Vishnu or Thor or Odin). If they had a redemption narrative virtually identical to the Biblical Gospels in all essential aspects. Or something of that nature. But alas, their god will probably be named Nuggin, and have five legs and espouse the righteous virtues of having your way with green-skinned Orion slave women. THAT would be a problem for theists, not for me ;-)
Most would have no issue but there are extremists so wed to a specific literal translation that they'd deny it's true.
If you doubt this, look at the evolution denialists and those claiming the earth is only 10,000 years old etc etc.
Oh, and they used to put people to death for suggesting things about orbits, suns and other planets that wasn't in line with church doctrine.
And who would all those people who were put to death for suggesting things about orbits, etc., be then, Mathguy? Galileo wasn't. Copernicus wasn't. Nicholas of Cusa wasn't. Even Giordano Bruno wasn't (and he wasn't even a scientist). Who else are you talking about?
I can name any number of scientists who were put to death by atheist governments, though, and pretty recently. Want me to start listing them? (Anyone for Lysenkoism?)
Your bigotry aside, why do you think religious people would have a problem with the discovery of life outside earth? It would just mean that God created other life, which would be neat.
For goodness sake, there are a fair share of fundamentalists who believe the earth is only 6,000-10,000 years old, depending upon whose doctrines they believe.
It was a tenet of fundamentalist thought for centuries that the earth was the center of God's creation, and that Mankind was the center of God's creation of earth. I can imagine the consternation of many fundamentalists when they could no longer deny that the earth was NOT the center of the solar system, let along the center of the universe. It continues to amaze me that there are some who continue to adhere to a 10,000 year old earth when carbon dating shows at lest 30-40,000 years. Never mind that there is such a thing as radioactive dating that is reliable for many millenia.
God continues to reveal to us the wonders of Himself and His creation. Choose to embrace it. Or choose to be left behind in ignorance.
It's bigotry on your part because you assigned common motivations to a wide group of people (the majority of people, actually) based on your prejudices and preconceptions about the way they supposedly think. ("The religious will simply do what the religious ALWAYS do.")
Then you are simply misusing the word bigotry for effect. I am merely making a comment based on observation and my observation is that religions adapt to new information in the manner I described. That is not bigotry. That is mere fact. Facts are not bigoted.
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Originally Posted by Arizona Mike
I'm still waiting to hear from Cupper3
Take that up with him. It has nothing to do with me or replying to me.
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Originally Posted by Arizona Mike
It hasn't been mentioned yet, but Christians already believe that forms of created intelligence exist outside of earth - angels and demons. Why would additional intelligences on another planet disrupt orthodox theology? Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
You talk of Christians as if they all have one belief on the matter. Perhaps while mistaking bigotry in others you miss it in yourself. There are many Christians who in fact do believe that we are a specially and solely created species in this universe. And all I said was merely to acknowledge that if another intelligent species were to be discovered that past experience tells me such people will merely adapt their beliefs.
In fact I am pretty sure there will be 6 groups of people who will run to meet aliens if they were ever discovered.
1) Those who want to communicate and learn from them.
2) Those who want to find a way to tax them.
3) Those who want to find a way to eat them.
4) Those who want to find a way to have sex with them.
5) Those who want to convert them to their religion.
6) Those who want to kill them (many who fail to achieve 5 will move then to 6)
There are probably others, but I think these 6 will sum it up nicely. There is a great book, Science Fiction, called The Sparrow which I recommend to everyone. Alien Life is discovered in it and the first people to get the resources together to send a ship were the Jesuits.
Read the Bible; it does not say there was no other planets with some form of life. But I haven't seen them bring back anything alive or other than simple celled remains even.
I think the bible does not say there are no other planets with some life form in the same chapter where it does not say that there aren't microorganisms.
Then you are simply misusing the word bigotry for effect. I am merely making a comment based on observation and my observation is that religions adapt to new information in the manner I described. That is not bigotry. That is mere fact. Facts are not bigoted.
People who feel that all black people think a certain way or that all gay people think a certain way or that all Jews think a certain way would be able to point with similar certainty to their "observations" and "observable facts."
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Take that up with him. It has nothing to do with me or replying to me.
Then don't take it personally.
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You talk of Christians as if they all have one belief on the matter.
The sheer irony of you now making this statement is breathtaking.
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Perhaps while mistaking bigotry in others you miss it in yourself. There are many Christians who in fact do believe that we are a specially and solely created species in this universe. And all I said was merely to acknowledge that if another intelligent species were to be discovered that past experience tells me such people will merely adapt their beliefs.
In fact I am pretty sure there will be 6 groups of people who will run to meet aliens if they were ever discovered.
1) Those who want to communicate and learn from them.
2) Those who want to find a way to tax them.
3) Those who want to find a way to eat them.
4) Those who want to find a way to have sex with them.
5) Those who want to convert them to their religion.
6) Those who want to kill them (many who fail to achieve 5 will move then to 6)
There are probably others, but I think these 6 will sum it up nicely. There is a great book, Science Fiction, called The Sparrow which I recommend to everyone. Alien Life is discovered in it and the first people to get the resources together to send a ship were the Jesuits.
Yeah, I've read it and the sequel. Good books. Interestingly, Russell does not have the Jesuits attempt at any point in either novel to convert the ETs.
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