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Doesn't seem out of the question to me, though the difficulty of working through leases for existing residents/tenants will be sticky.
Epic paid $95 million for the 87-acre Cary Towne Center down the street (though Turnbridge/Denali paid only $31.5 million for it before flipping to Epic).
Doesn't seem out of the question to me, though the difficulty of working through leases for existing residents/tenants will be sticky.
Epic paid $95 million for the 87-acre Cary Towne Center down the street (though Turnbridge/Denali paid only $31.5 million for it before flipping to Epic).
I think the $1 million/acre is a bit of a pipe dream.
CTC was a much better location, with better access, not at risk of losing value due to a RR/Thorofare project, and significant utility infrastructure in place.
It was a single distressed site with fewer, or no, compromises or entanglements in terms of leases and without onus of putting lower economical scale long-term residential tenants out.
And I am disappointed that Turnbridge had followed through with their mixed use plan, which would have been much better for TOC community than a restricted access corporate campus. Epic just made them "an offer they couldn't refuse," which is what cash-flush people often do when they want something. I don't think it set the market as a comparable for other transactions.
I don't do much personal business in the plaza shops, but they serve a purpose for small business owners and entrepreneurs.
And I am disappointed that Turnbridge had followed through with their mixed use plan, which would have been much better for TOC community than a restricted access corporate campus. Epic just made them "an offer they couldn't refuse," which is what cash-flush people often do when they want something. I don't think it set the market as a comparable for other transactions.
I'm still holding out hope that Epic reverses course, realizes they don't need to build out such a huge campus in modern WFH society, and sells the majority of it off to a developer.
Price may be a deal compared to the millions it cost Epic to raze CTC mall. Easy to tow away house trailers. (I know that’s crass, there are human beings there). I don’t see the demographics or population density supporting any fancy retail. They will likely come to a price that makes sense for more high density apartments or condos.
The vision is certainly for that area to look vastly different in the future. It's a prime location and there will be a BRT stop right there at Maynard and Chatham. It definitely is a prime spot for mid-rise mixed use. Access to I-40 is a little awkward but not terrible. Chatham/Hillsborough is a straight shot into Raleigh, close to downtown Cary and with the BRT heading in both directions, it's convenient.
I do wonder if now is the right time though. Fenton is absorbing higher-end mixed-use demand in the immediate area with more phases still to come. Who knows what's going to happen with CTC. Even if Epic gets its campus, the hope is there will be at least some public-facing redevelopment around the perimeter of the site. DT Cary is of course still booming with several more large projects coming soon.
But of course maybe this property owner is willing to put it out there now and just wait for the right buyer to come along when the time is right. Or maybe a buyer will also see the vision and be willing to buy in early and then wait.
I think Chatham Square was one of the very unique areas of Cary, with some of the best dining options for "authentic" ethnic food. It was not the most aestheticly pleasing place, but it was special, and it was EXACTLY the kind of parts of Cary that so many people seemed to overlook when they labeled us "chains and bland places".
On the other hand, progress has its benefits too, and I can only hope that something good will go there, and (unlike Fenton, and the two new "Target Plaza places that everyone confuses with one another", it will actually have something good to offer and not just the bland generic c-rap you can find in every city.
My biggest issue, and it's not unique to this project, or even to Cary, is all the people who are getting displaced. I saw quite a few comments on other social media that were something to the effect of "if they can't afford to live here, they can just move to the country where it's cheaper". Ignoring for a minute all of the practical issues with that statement, I think these mindless/heartless people who feel that way have not thought for a single second about WHO is going to prepare their meals, wash the dishes, build their home additions and work all the other service-industry hourly jobs. Certainly not somebody who has to come up with $2k+/moth for rent. That's for sure.
Cary is developing, I think it's inevitable, but we really need to think about affordable housing to look out for the people that built Cary, and to help keep the charm that so many people seem to not even notice (but so many more of us love).
I think Chatham Square was one of the very unique areas of Cary, with some of the best dining options for "authentic" ethnic food. It was not the most aestheticly pleasing place, but it was special, and it was EXACTLY the kind of parts of Cary that so many people seemed to overlook when they labeled us "chains and bland places".
On the other hand, progress has its benefits too, and I can only hope that something good will go there, and (unlike Fenton, and the two new "Target Plaza places that everyone confuses with one another", it will actually have something good to offer and not just the bland generic c-rap you can find in every city.
My biggest issue, and it's not unique to this project, or even to Cary, is all the people who are getting displaced. I saw quite a few comments on other social media that were something to the effect of "if they can't afford to live here, they can just move to the country where it's cheaper". Ignoring for a minute all of the practical issues with that statement, I think these mindless/heartless people who feel that way have not thought for a single second about WHO is going to prepare their meals, wash the dishes, build their home additions and work all the other service-industry hourly jobs. Certainly not somebody who has to come up with $2k+/moth for rent. That's for sure.
Cary is developing, I think it's inevitable, but we really need to think about affordable housing to look out for the people that built Cary, and to help keep the charm that so many people seem to not even notice (but so many more of us love).
I guess that's my morning rant...
I tend to agree with you.
Those businesses are there because there is nothing else like it in Cary.
Those people live there because it is reasonably Affordable Cary in a decent location.
Cary needs to get more aggressive in supporting and requiring affordable housing.
Since we arrived in 1997, it has been obvious it is nearly impossible for our cops and teachers to live in Cary. Not much has been done to resolve that issue.
I tend to agree with you.
Those businesses are there because there is nothing else like it in Cary.
Those people live there because it is reasonably Affordable Cary in a decent location.
Cary needs to get more aggressive in supporting and requiring affordable housing.
Since we arrived in 1997, it has been obvious it is nearly impossible for our cops and teachers to live in Cary. Not much has been done to resolve that issue.
The problem is even the most inclusive definition of affordable housing is unfortunately not going to reach down far enough to bring in people like those living in the trailer park on this property and across Maynard. Maybe the answer is to broaden that definition, but that will take money from somewhere in some form.
The trailer park is zoned pretty generously - "downtown mixed residential," 50 units per acre, 90' height, 1-2 parking spaces per unit. But it's limited by a pond, a blue-line stream, and a good chunk of floodplain, and the water/sewer pipes will need to be replaced. There's no legal obligation towards existing residents, but there is a moral obligation given that this is one of Cary's largest "naturally occurring" affordable housing resources.
The shopping center is zoned, well, shopping center; it would require a rezoning to do much of anything else there. That slows down the redevelopment process considerably.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFspiderman
Chatham Square is such an interesting mix of ethnic shops and restaurants. I hope some of it can be preserved, but it's doubtful given the economics involved...
I like how the owner says he's "not looking for redevelopment but rather someone who will manage the property." Anybody buying that for $50 million isn't looking to just manage it lol.
That price would be doable with high-end townhouses, but not given the infrastructure that's required. Some multifamily seems likely, and maybe the town could chip in to secure a parcel for LIHTC affordable housing (similar to this site by East Cary MS) - which leverages federal and state funds, but still probably addresses a different population than the current residents.
The shopping center's well-tenanted; maybe it would work as a "covered land play" (hold for a few years to collect rent), which is what South Hills was pitched as. If I had an old strip mall somewhere, I'd definitely begin trying to poach several of Chatham Square's tenants as their leases come up over the next several years. (Commercial leases are generally multi-year affairs, so it takes a long time to empty out a strip mall.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard-xyzzy
Don Curtis owns the 30 acres between 54 and Hillsborough (two tracts). He'd have to move his WPTF and also his WQDR-AM and WKIX on the same site. The latter two are simple. Moving WPTF is more complicated if he wants to retain its 50 kilowatt authorization. But he might let that go, for the right price for the real estate. I think Curtis just passed 80 and surely he's thinking about his exit.
Yeah, AM radio station licenses are all but worthless these days: four recently re-released licenses in the #24 DMA (RDU is #23) received no bids at FCC auction. Newer electric cars often don't have AM receivers.
The trailer park is zoned pretty generously - "downtown mixed residential," 50 units per acre, 90' height, 1-2 parking spaces per unit. But it's limited by a pond, a blue-line stream, and a good chunk of floodplain, and the water/sewer pipes will need to be replaced. There's no legal obligation towards existing residents, but there is a moral obligation given that this is one of Cary's largest "naturally occurring" affordable housing resources.
The shopping center is zoned, well, shopping center; it would require a rezoning to do much of anything else there. That slows down the redevelopment process considerably.
That price would be doable with high-end townhouses, but not given the infrastructure that's required. Some multifamily seems likely, and maybe the town could chip in to secure a parcel for LIHTC affordable housing (similar to this site by East Cary MS) - which leverages federal and state funds, but still probably addresses a different population than the current residents.
The shopping center's well-tenanted; maybe it would work as a "covered land play" (hold for a few years to collect rent), which is what South Hills was pitched as. If I had an old strip mall somewhere, I'd definitely begin trying to poach several of Chatham Square's tenants as their leases come up over the next several years. (Commercial leases are generally multi-year affairs, so it takes a long time to empty out a strip mall.)
Yeah, AM radio station licenses are all but worthless these days: four recently re-released licenses in the #24 DMA (RDU is #23) received no bids at FCC auction. Newer electric cars often don't have AM receivers.
All good points. I will say that some Cary has published that small area plan it would be a bit easier to get a rezoning there than it would be otherwise.
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