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The problem is - in the model year that is being discussed - they weren’t. The engine failure rate was so high it prompted a lawsuit.
The engine failure rate was 8% for the 2000-2005 model year cars that had the smaller single row bearing. This is calculated by how many failures occurred in a 90k mile interval. For manual transmission cars, the bearing is easily replaced when you have the clutch replaced (which typically happens at the 50-60k mark.)
The IMS retrofit kit completely eliminates the problem and essentially upgrades the motor to the system used on the Turbo and GT cars.
The engine failure rate was 8% for the 2000-2005 model year cars that had the smaller single row bearing. This is calculated by how many failures occurred in a 90k mile interval. For manual transmission cars, the bearing is easily replaced when you have the clutch replaced (which typically happens at the 50-60k mark.)
The IMS retrofit kit completely eliminates the problem and essentially upgrades the motor to the system used on the Turbo and GT cars.
Engine failure was over 10% per documentation on the lawsuit (stats from 2005 are irrelevant and you have to go back to 1999 as well). That is not ‘reliable’ by anyone’s definition. I am not trying to trash Porsche or the car; I’m merely pointing out the facts for the model year OP was looking at; and it’s used, meaning it can be very easy for a seller to be deceptive about what work was completed (because his only interest at the end of the day is to sell the car). If I was not a ‘car guy’ as OP stated, and on a limited budget, I’d want to be well aware of the facts - which is why I jumped in. He is obviously not a DIY either - and labor costs can add up quickly. That said, he may consider the known risk worth it.
...Which I posted in my first comment in this thread. So, Lexus is thought highly of because they're dependable and reliable, and Porsche, which is right there with Lexus in reliability, has the bar set low for them?
Stop posting misinformation. The OP should be thanking you though, it's people like you who have kept the pricing down on the used car market.
The problem you are having is you interpret "maintenance issues" as "reliability".
I'm sure Porsches are a reliable sports car. I never disputed that (well, they are VAG so again not really the same as Lexus reliabilty).
But outside that, they will cost quite a bit more just to keep operating and roadworthy. As an example I mentioned brake pads - something you will probably be going through a lot on a 911 - and TRW pads (a decent generic) are $200. Compare that to a Camry at $40 for the same TRW pads.
That is just one small example of how much more expensive it will be to operate that car.
There is a reason why they were $80k new and $20k now...same with the BMW 7 series. Except those lose even more value. I would expect a 17 year old production sports car to be worth more like $10k but Porsche defies the odds.
Except - it’s a very big issue which causes engine failure! That’s why the resale market on these models is so low (and the fact it only has 50k miles would make me wonder since it’s 17 years old). With engine failure, you’re looking at 12-15k, and it would be very easy for a seller to brush over this (or even say the IMS, etc was replaced). So that’s why I say - proceed with caution. There are never any guarantees with used cars, but this is especially true when there is a known fault with an engine component in that particular year. It’s a great car - just want to be sure he knows what he is getting into, especially considering his budget.
I own a 2000 Carrera and had the IMS and rear seal fixed at the same time. I specifically chose a Porsche dealer to do this work because people who inquired about buying the car wanted to see proof of the fix. I don’t blame them. It cost around 3500 for both here in the Bay Area.
I own a 2000 Carrera and had the IMS and rear seal fixed at the same time. I specifically chose a Porsche dealer to do this work because people who inquired about buying the car wanted to see proof of the fix. I don’t blame them. It cost around 3500 for both here in the Bay Area.
If OP still wants to move forward (despite the known risk) - I’d highly recommend a PPI to OP. It costs about 150-200 bucks, but it can save you thousands in regret and surprises. The seller should already have a documented maintenance record dating back to 2002 (hopefully).
Engine failure was over 10% per documentation on the lawsuit (stats from 2005 are irrelevant and you have to go back to 1999 as well). That is not ‘reliable’ by anyone’s definition. I am not trying to trash Porsche or the car; I’m merely pointing out the facts for the model year OP was looking at; and it’s used, meaning it can be very easy for a seller to be deceptive about what work was completed (because his only interest at the end of the day is to sell the car). If I was not a ‘car guy’ as OP stated, and on a limited budget, I’d want to be well aware of the facts - which is why I jumped in. He is obviously not a DIY either - and labor costs can add up quickly. That said, he may consider the known risk worth it.
Your information is incorrect. The 1999-2001 models used a different IMS bearing than what was found in 2002-2005. The failure rate for the 99-01 models was less than 1%. The redesign of the bearing is what led to far more failures, and the 2002 model is what the OP is discussing. Again, they also calculate these failures based on cars that have reached 90k miles. At 30k, 40k, 50k... the percentage is a far smaller number. With the OP saying the car had 50k, it probably hasn't had the repair done yet.
The OP originally stated he was aware of the IMS issue. So either he'll look for documentation that the repair has been made, or he'll negotiate the cost off the price to do it himself. Personally, as plentiful as the 996 cars are, I'd look for one that already had the IMS service done and documented, and the price will still be in his budget.
The problem you are having is you interpret "maintenance issues" as "reliability".
I'm sure Porsches are a reliable sports car. I never disputed that (well, they are VAG so again not really the same as Lexus reliabilty).
Wrong. Lexus isn't always ranked #1 for reliability, some years Porsche is. Their reliability is the same, whether you like to believe facts or not. It's all the more impressive considering how much more performance you get from Porsche.
The IMS bearing is not a maintenance issue, it's a design flaw, hence, reflective of a brand's reliability. On this one, Porsche screwed up big time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pipsters
But outside that, they will cost quite a bit more just to keep operating and roadworthy. As an example I mentioned brake pads - something you will probably be going through a lot on a 911 - and TRW pads (a decent generic) are $200. Compare that to a Camry at $40 for the same TRW pads.
That is just one small example of how much more expensive it will be to operate that car.
TRW? Uh, no wonder they're so expensive since they're certainly not a common manufacturer for brake pads for a Porsche. ...Oh, look, here on Rock Auto I can get brake pads for my 911 turbo from as low as $66 for all 4 wheels or $80 for a full set of Brembos. Considering you're getting a lot more pad due to a lot bigger brakes than what you'll find on a Camry, the cost is probably about the same if the pads were the same size.
Again. You don't know anything about what parts or maintenance cost for Porsches. I do. I've had 5 different Porsche models over the years and I do my own work on them about half the time.
Your information is incorrect. The 1999-2001 models used a different IMS bearing than what was found in 2002-2005. The failure rate for the 99-01 models was less than 1%. The redesign of the bearing is what led to far more failures, and the 2002 model is what the OP is discussing. Again, they also calculate these failures based on cars that have reached 90k miles. At 30k, 40k, 50k... the percentage is a far smaller number. With the OP saying the car had 50k, it probably hasn't had the repair done yet
My information is not incorrect - lol. There was a class action lawsuit against Porsche prompted by this faulty component and engine failure. And in re to it not being resolved: YES, that is exactly my point, the history of a used car is unknown; and given the fact it’s 17 years old, I’d want a PPI (and detailed documentation on its history) before I went near it (if budget was a concern as OP indicated). I love Porsche - and own a 911 myself so I’m not trying to knock it. I’m simply stating ‘due diligence’ when purchasing a used car (as laws are not in your favor) especially when there is a known stigma attached to the model year in question.
OP - good luck and give us an update if you purchase it. Happy driving!
Wrong. Lexus isn't always ranked #1 for reliability, some years Porsche is. Their reliability is the same, whether you like to believe facts or not. It's all the more impressive considering how much more performance you get from Porsche.
The IMS bearing is not a maintenance issue, it's a design flaw, hence, reflective of a brand's reliability. On this one, Porsche screwed up big time.
You are quoting data off a three year old reliabilty study, not 17 year old. It's not even close to being applicable. It would be if the OP was buying a 2015 911. Did you miss that he is looking at buying a 2002?
Quote:
TRW? Uh, no wonder they're so expensive since they're certainly not a common manufacturer for brake pads for a Porsche. ...Oh, look, here on Rock Auto I can get brake pads for my 911 turbo from as low as $66 for all 4 wheels or $80 for a full set of Brembos. Considering you're getting a lot more pad due to a lot bigger brakes than what you'll find on a Camry, the cost is probably about the same if the pads were the same size.
Again. You don't know anything about what parts or maintenance cost for Porsches. I do. I've had 5 different Porsche models over the years and I do my own work on them about half the time.
Yes there are cheaper pads available, I tried to at least choose name brand parts for an apples to apples. Porsche pads are over $1,000(!). How much are Toyota pads? (rhetorical question, they aren't $1,000!).
Doing your own work is key. How much will the OP pay hourly for Porsche service?
You are quoting data off a three year old reliabilty study, not 17 year old. It's not even close to being applicable. It would be if the OP was buying a 2015 911. Did you miss that he is looking at buying a 2002?
If you like, you can pull up Google to prove to yourself the Porsche has been at the top of the reliability chart since the 996 era as well. But I guess to you, Porsche just suddenly popped up on top this year, and all the other years, the bar was set extremely low. LOL
Quote:
Originally Posted by pipsters
Yes there are cheaper pads available, I tried to at least choose name brand parts for an apples to apples. Porsche pads are over $1,000(!). How much are Toyota pads? (rhetorical question, they aren't $1,000!).
Doing your own work is hey. How much will the OP pay hourly for Porsche service?
Porsche brake pads are not $1000. Here's a link to prove it.
Porsche brakepads would be $150/front, $147/rear, for a total of $297 for the car OP is considering. However, only a sucker would buy those, because the OEM brake pads are made by Textar, and they cost $101/front and $73/rear.
So... where is your link showing Porsche pads are $1k?
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LOL
