the CONSTITUTION: the only document that can save you from Tyranny in America. (accuse, soldier)
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First off, our Founding Fathers were highly questionable about the existenence of God---they were men of the Enlightenment. Their view of God was very laissz-faire, He's around, but doesnt do much. They didn't want God in the equation, they saw how it tore Europe apart.
Two, it's pretty clear you have no idea what your talking about. We have a separation of Church and State for a reason--get use to it.
The only thing "questionable" here is your ability to differentiate between God and religion, and your understanding of the beliefs of the founding fathers, which varied amongst them. Some were deists, while others were theists, but I am not aware of any who were atheists. I could be wrong on that as I've not been preoccupied with the subject.
Though they did agree to separation of church and state as a practical matter, insofar as their desire for a non - monarchial form of republican government .. avoiding such domination of the new republic's political affairs, be it theological or royal in nature. They were all too familiar with Rome's undue influence on Europe's politics for hundreds of years and the damage it caused, and it is quite likely that such separation was specifically geared to keep the Pope at the doorstep. But this did not reflect an indifference to God, as God or the Creator is clearly in referenced many times.
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Originally Posted by lmkcin
Three, I wasn't teaching anything, it ought to be basic knowledge, Christ, I learned this stuff back in high school. I know the Dec is a basis, but it's not law. The Constitution is only a frame of government, it's open ended. They meant for future generations to adopt it for their use while maintaining keys principles, a fact you clealy overlook.
This explains your sophomoric understanding .... "I learned this in High School". And no one suggested that the Declaration of Independence was "law". Who did that?
And I overlook nothing ... there clearly are mechanisms for calling Con-Cons, and for amending the constitution, but I'll tell you this ... the way this government is being run now bears no resemblance to the vision of the drafters of that constitution, and if they were around today to see what a mess it is ... every congress since 1913 would have been removed, prosecuted, and some of them hung, as would the last two dozen executives. And I dare say quite a few Supreme Court Justices would have faced similar action.
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Originally Posted by lmkcin
Yeah, go read John Locke, the Father of Liberalism, a social contract is his idea.
There is much influence associated with Locke found in the declaration and constitution, much of which is associated with the "social contract" idea. Though Locke's ideas of, and influence on liberalism is a far cry from today's version which has much more in common with Marxism ... and a polar opposite of Locke's belief in private property.
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Originally Posted by lmkcin
Oh, and the world is not 6000 years old. You and I are certianly related to monkeys. Darwin wouldn't write his treatise until 50 years after the founding of the Republic..so
You are very confused. One, I am not some medieval evangelical christian fundamentalist which seems to be what you are driving at with the 6,000 year comment.
No, honest science is proving Darwin to be a major hack, given the continuos discoveries of new archeological findings showing modern man coexisting with earlier man, among other findings that show advancements in the human species could not have occurred in the timeframes found by pure evolution.
The evidence of intelligent design has been accumulating rapidly, much to the dismay of the modern day liberals who cannot bear the thought of a A Creator, primarily because they wouldn't care to be subject to the scrutiny of such a Supreme Being at the end of their days, and no one can blame them for that, the poor Godless souls that they are.
And I might suggest to you that education is a lifelong effort, as such doesn't stop upon graduation of high school. That is barely the beginning.
Can you prove that there is a GOD?
Didn't think so.
Not so fast. are you breathing? your heart/lungs was not created or jump started by man or evolution or you would be dead by now. God was your only mechanic/fabricator.
Now, your turn. prove to me that there 'isn't' a GOD.
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A whole bunch of us don't believe in a god or we believe in different gods.
Right. and that 'whole bunch' is a much lower number than the 'whole bunch' who wrote and believe in the Constitution and DOI.
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Please tell me what the attack on the constitution is.
Please be clear so that I can understand your points.
Are you serious? Have you not been paying attention over the years of the many attacks on the Consistution to amend it laws, you can start at the Bill of Rights.
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To make such a statement, can you please show me proof of a god.
And the bible is just a book used to explain the universe for a bunch of people who had no understanding of the world.
You know wha they say about opinions right?
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BTW, for me, my creator is my mother's egg and father's sperm and the incubation process.
don't stop there. keep going back until you run out of ancestors, and then tell us what do you have?
Not so fast. are you breathing? your heart/lungs was not created or jump started by man or evolution or you would be dead by now. God was your only mechanic/fabricator.
There is no indication of a god in my life. Sorry to disappoint you.
Now, your turn. prove to me that there 'isn't' a GOD.
I don't have to. According to the generally accepted internet rules, you make an assertion, you are required to back it up.
Right. and that 'whole bunch' is a much lower number than the 'whole bunch' who wrote and believe in the Constitution and DOI.
[COLOR="rgb(139, 0, 0)"]You have to prove to me again that these people were religious.[/color]
Are you serious? Have you not been paying attention over the years of the many attacks on the Consistution to amend it laws, you can start at the Bill of Rights. I'm asking for specifics, not generalities. You make assertions, I believe it's okay to ask you to be clear and concise. You are making the assertions.
You know wha they say about opinions right?
Oh, how clever.
don't stop there. keep going back until you run out of ancestors, and then tell us what do you have?
No proof of anything, the same as you.
None of that proves a god. It is just your opinion based on facts you can't understand.
And again, I'm asking for specific areas in which the constitution has been ruined. That was the OP and you continued with the assertion.
I want to know specifics.
It's the OP, you're not addressing questions about specifics.
I can't understand why you can't answer these questions if the information is so very clear to you.
The only thing "questionable" here is your ability to differentiate between God and religion, and your understanding of the beliefs of the founding fathers, which varied amongst them. Some were deists, while others were theists, but I am not aware of any who were atheists. I could be wrong on that as I've not been preoccupied with the subject.
Though they did agree to separation of church and state as a practical matter, insofar as their desire for a non - monarchial form of republican government .. avoiding such domination of the new republic's political affairs, be it theological or royal in nature. They were all too familiar with Rome's undue influence on Europe's politics for hundreds of years and the damage it caused, and it is quite likely that such separation was specifically geared to keep the Pope at the doorstep. But this did not reflect an indifference to God, as God or the Creator is clearly in referenced many times.
This explains your sophomoric understanding .... "I learned this in High School". And no one suggested that the Declaration of Independence was "law". Who did that?
And I overlook nothing ... there clearly are mechanisms for calling Con-Cons, and for amending the constitution, but I'll tell you this ... the way this government is being run now bears no resemblance to the vision of the drafters of that constitution, and if they were around today to see what a mess it is ... every congress since 1913 would have been removed, prosecuted, and some of them hung, as would the last two dozen executives. And I dare say quite a few Supreme Court Justices would have faced similar action.
There is much influence associated with Locke found in the declaration and constitution, much of which is associated with the "social contract" idea. Though Locke's ideas of, and influence on liberalism is a far cry from today's version which has much more in common with Marxism ... and a polar opposite of Locke's belief in private property.
You are very confused. One, I am not some medieval evangelical christian fundamentalist which seems to be what you are driving at with the 6,000 year comment.
No, honest science is proving Darwin to be a major hack, given the continuos discoveries of new archeological findings showing modern man coexisting with earlier man, among other findings that show advancements in the human species could not have occurred in the timeframes found by pure evolution.
The evidence of intelligent design has been accumulating rapidly, much to the dismay of the modern day liberals who cannot bear the thought of a A Creator, primarily because they wouldn't care to be subject to the scrutiny of such a Supreme Being at the end of their days, and no one can blame them for that, the poor Godless souls that they are.
And I might suggest to you that education is a lifelong effort, as such doesn't stop upon graduation of high school. That is barely the beginning.
Intelligent design is code for creationism, for starters. It was made up by the religious right in this country, again because ignorance is pervasive. So don't pull this malarky that we're finding all sorts of information proving intelligent design. To prove anything about intelligent design, you'd have to prove the existence of a divine being. I can't prove God exists, but it is my belief He does. It's like having your cake and eating too. Evolution can be proved, even traced. All in all, humans probably know one tenth of one percent of the contained knowledge of the universe.
Our founders weren't so afarid of what Rome did to Europe, but what Henry VIII did to England. He tore the nation apart in the name of religion, that he was God's ordained minister on Earth. Our founders hated Catholics--as one, it's hard to reconcile that, but oh well. They were concerned with the tyranny that reigned in England following Henry, Mary and Elizabeth and James and Charles---a century of fighting all but destroyed England, it even became a 'republic' at one point. The English Civil War and the Great Awakening weighed heavy on the minds of our Colonial founders, starting even as early as the 1650's here in New England.
Religion and things done in God's name create tyranny. Our founders, regardless of whether they were deists, theists or atheists, wanted to protect themselves and their posterity from such tryanny. They had 3000 years of European history at their backs to draw from.
Separation of church and state was meant to protect the tryanny of the people from the church, and the tyranny of church from the people (in the form of government). Church and State are like oil and water. The former is irrational and the latter is rational, ie one is without reason (proof) and the one created (manufactured).
I said I learned this in high school because I did and apparently my high school was the only one to teach us the foundations of American democracy. They didn't waste our time teaching us intelligent design or creationism....I now have a master's/post secondary degree...I know the value of education.
[quote=AuntieMame;13536636]
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Originally Posted by 4Horsemen Not so fast. are you breathing? your heart/lungs was not created or jump started by man or evolution or you would be dead by now. God was your only mechanic/fabricator. There is no indication of a god in my life. Sorry to disappoint you.
Now, your turn. prove to me that there 'isn't' a GOD. I don't have to. According to the generally accepted internet rules, you make an assertion, you are required to back it up.
Right. and that 'whole bunch' is a much lower number than the 'whole bunch' who wrote and believe in the Constitution and DOI. [COLOR="rgb(139, 0, 0)"]You have to prove to me again that these people were religious.[/color]
Are you serious? Have you not been paying attention over the years of the many attacks on the Consistution to amend it laws, you can start at the Bill of Rights. I'm asking for specifics, not generalities. You make assertions, I believe it's okay to ask you to be clear and concise. You are making the assertions.
You know wha they say about opinions right? Oh, how clever.
don't stop there. keep going back until you run out of ancestors, and then tell us what do you have? No proof of anything, the same as you.
So dodging the same questions you asked me is your way of constructive debate? how crass. Now if you wanna get technical about the existence of God, go start the thread in the Religious forum and I will gladly dispell any myth you have grown accustomed to believing.
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None of that proves a god. It is just your opinion based on facts you can't understand.
and it's quite obvious you don't understand it either, but you can bet I'm closer to ground zero than you are. that's for sure.
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And again, I'm asking for specific areas in which the constitution has been ruined.
you asked for "attacks" on the Constitution..let's start with the Bill of Rights:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law. ATTACKED! (SEE OBAMA'S CIVILIAN ARMY COMING SOON)
Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.ATTACKED! (SEE JOE STACK)
No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.NOT ATTACKED(THEY USE THIS ONE TO LIE WITH- SEE BERNIE MADOFF AND RAHM EMMANUEL)
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.ATTACKED!(SEE OJ TRIAL - TRIAL TOOK FOREVER AND DAY)
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.ATTACKED!(MANY MANY INNOCENT PRISONERS IN PRISONS ACROSS THE COUNTRY- RAILROADED BY THE COURTS)
Eighth Amendment – Prohibition of excessive bail and cruel and unusual punishment. Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.ATTACKED! (2 CRUMBS OF CRACK- 5YEARS, 1OUNCE OF COCAINE- PROBATION). CORRUPTION IN THE COURTS.
Ninth Amendment – Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights. The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. ATTACKED! (SEE TEA PARTY AGAIN)
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
ATTACKED! (SEE TEA PARTY)
I see Tea Parties, which of course is prima facia evidence that they are enjoying all the rights protected by the 1st Amendment.
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A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. [6]
ATTACKED! (SEE WACO)
I saw WACO, Mr. Koresh if wrongly denied his right to bear arms could have easily proven that in a court of law, but instead, chose to used lethal force to resist a lawfully obtained warrant.
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Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. ATTACKED! (SEE JOE STACK)
I'm dying to know what provision of the 4th Amendment was violated in Mr. Stack's situation.
I could go on with this meaningless cut and paste, but I think most reasonably sane individuals would understand the frivolousness of the argument being attempted.
you asked for "attacks" on the Constitution..let's start with the Bill of Rights:
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You can't prove 99% of what you wrote...it's all some whacko right wing conspiracy.
The Constitution also states that federal law trumps state law.
You should also be reading the SCOTUS descions over the centuries. It's the Court of Last Resort of the nation, they decide the constitutionality of the laws of this land, not Glenn Beck.
Shocking right? I know.
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