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Location: land of quail, bunnies, and red tail hawks
1,513 posts, read 3,390,424 times
Reputation: 3540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy
Have you checked the history books lately for a description of the wars between religions! It's not a pretty picture. The concept of humanism is relatively new because religious beliefs dominated every society for most of recorded history. This is one argument that you're not going to win. The cruelty and inhumanity that's been waged by rival religions makes humanism look like an outing by a group of girl scouts.
The concept of humanism is as old as time itself, and at its root it's all about me, me, me! The most obvious example is ancient Greece which was very humanistic. The Greek mindset further influenced the Mid-East and northern Africa through the conquests of Alexander the Great. Rome was also heavily influenced by this same mindset, and let's not forget the Renaissance. It was the humanistic mindset that set Greece up to be conquered by Alexander (who was only following in his fathers footsteps). It was the same mindset that allowed Rome to conquer the "world," followed by the Mongul hordes. The result: The Dark Ages! People were now too busy surviving to advance in intellectual and scientific pursuits (although some did try). How to escape from the morass humanistic thinking had gotten them into? War! All along, people were putting their faith in the goodness of mankind which led them to war after war after war. It was the humanistic mindset that wouldn't allow the people to question the church when it called for the Crusades. After all, the priests and the pope wouldn't lead them astray, would they? No one would purposefully deceive them! More war fueled by false promises! Faith in their fellow man led to unimaginable horrors.
The American colonists expected to be rightly treated by England and France. After all, wouldn't their former friends and neighbors treat them well? I think we all know how that ended up. Germany had the same mindset after World War I. That left them ripe for the picking by you know who. The Germans so believed in the humanistic mindset that people would rise to the occasion and be guided by their inner "good" compass, they wouldn't even believe the atrocities that were occurring in their homeland; they thought it was propaganda. We're hardwired to think that people are essentially good because, deep down, we know the right way to live. However, that doesn't address the reality that predators are always on the prowl, and the predators can be pretty evil.
I won't disagree for a minute that many wars were fought over religion, at least in the name of religion. But who instigated and lead the wars? What was their motivating factor? It certainly wasn't to spread love and goodwill; most acknowledge the motivating factors were power, greed, and land. That's why I mentioned Biblical Christianity. There's no doubt that people have perverted faiths of all types to further their own agendas. That's why a moral compass is needed; that's why absolute moral values within all societies are essential. Without them, people will blindly look away and take care of #1. Yes, there will be exceptions to the rule; however, the exceptions will be far too few.
Have you checked the history books lately for a description of the wars between religions! It's not a pretty picture. The concept of humanism is relatively new because religious beliefs dominated every society for most of recorded history. This is one argument that you're not going to win. The cruelty and inhumanity that's been waged by rival religions makes humanism look like an outing by a group of girl scouts.
So, if we took religion out of the picture, there would be no war?
There would be war, but it would at least be honest. The blame would be put squarely on the shoulders where it belongs: the ugly side of human fallicy. One country would have more wealth, another would be oppressed. One country would be peaceful, another would want to expand and conquer. If you're going to do something you intrisically know to be wrong, how do you justify it and convince others to follow?
Play the religion card. It's a Get Out of Jail Free, Pass Go and Collect $200 proposition. You can propose the most beautiful, perfect, Utopic religion - hand it out to humanity - and watch them twist it for their benefit. It has nothing to do with God or religion. It has everything to do with humanity.
I have seen and have been prayed for myself when supernatural healing has taken place. I have seen limbs grow in the name of Jesus
Please, Jeff, tell me about seeing limbs grow..I am serious..Of all the healings I have heard about, never have I ever heard of any limbs growing, or the paralyzed walk.
Last edited by jeffncandace; 06-29-2007 at 08:32 AM..
Reason: fixed your quote
Please, Jeff, tell me about seeing limbs grow..I am serious..Of all the healings I have heard about, never have I ever heard of any limbs growing, or the paralyzed walk.
Well, in particular a lady attended our church when I was a kid. She had one leg that was considerably shorter than the other, she walked with a limp and had severe back problems, among many others. I remember my parents praying for her, my dad had his hand on her head and my mom on her stomach and back. The lady started twisting slowly, back and forth...my mom lead her back to a chair where she sat down. My mom kneeled in front of her and held both of the lady's legs in both of her hands, straight out in front. They kept praying in tongues and in English, praising and thanking God for the manifestation of this lady's healing. Her leg started growing! It slowly, over several minutes, became even with the other one. She stood up and instead the question mark she had once been, she stood straight and walked normally!
So, if we took religion out of the picture, there would be no war?
Unfortunately, due to our human nature I'm sure we'd still find plenty of things to start wars over. I was just pointing out that history books are filled with the cruelties inflicted by religious zealots. I actually agree with your last post completely, there doesn't seem to be any utopia on the horizon for mankind. I don't think any philosophy can change the fundamental nature of human beings, I'm just stating that humanism is the only philosophy that I'm aware of that's completely based on a realistic and practical foundation.
The concept of humanism is as old as time itself, and at its root it's all about me, me, me!
I don't view humanism as somehow being selfish or self centered at all. In fact humanism is all about creating a better world for everyone. I notice that when people say they don't believe there's a God that many religious people will label them as arrogant and your comment "it's all about me, me, me!" seems to illustrate my point. I actually feel the opposite is true. The religious viewpoint puts man at the center of a battle between good and evil forces, both of which are trying to win over our souls. Now from my point of view that sounds much more arrogant (I don't mean you personally). Also, we do need a sense of direction in society and I believe the concepts of promoting rational thought and scientific inquiry to resolve man's problems is a viable means of providing it.
I don't view humanism as somehow being selfish or self centered at all. In fact humanism is all about creating a better world for everyone. I notice that when people say they don't believe there's a God that many religious people will label them as arrogant and your comment "it's all about me, me, me!" seems to illustrate my point. I actually feel the opposite is true. The religious viewpoint puts man at the center of a battle between good and evil forces, both of which are trying to win over our souls. Now from my point of view that sounds much more arrogant (I don't mean you personally). Also, we do need a sense of direction in society and I believe the concepts of promoting rational thought and scientific inquiry to resolve man's problems is a viable means of providing it.
Location: land of quail, bunnies, and red tail hawks
1,513 posts, read 3,390,424 times
Reputation: 3540
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy
Also, we do need a sense of direction in society and I believe the concepts of promoting rational thought and scientific inquiry to resolve man's problems is a viable means of providing it.
What (or who) is going to provide the sense of direction you claim we need? Philosophers can't agree on idealogical issues. Scientists don't agree on scientific conclusions. Politicians don't agree with each other. Neighbors disagree with neighbors; states, with states; countries, with countries. When mankind is left to it's own devices and ideas, chaos and destruction ultimately occurs. Rational thought and scientific inquiry aren't magically going to make people agree. Charismatic leaders or charlatans will rise up to rally the people around them, and secular wars will be fought; however, with no moral absolutes, even more people will die.
I know you don't believe the Biblical record, and that is fine. Others do, however, so I'm going to use an example to illustrate my point. (This is for illustration only and not to debate the accuracy of the Bible, so please don't go there.)
When creation occurred, Adam and Eve were given only one rule: don't eat the forbidden fruit. They did. Although I believe God must have given them some general guidelines while walking with them in the garden, there weren't formal rules laid out. In the New Testament, we are told that God has written His word on our hearts, so these early peoples must have had an "inner compass." Fast forward 1650 years. Mankind had been living in what was originally a perfect world. However, they didn't have a formal set of rules. Everyone did what he thought was right in his own eyes, ignoring that "inner compass." The result: They were so evil that God destroyed the world with a flood.
According to the Talmud, Noah was given a set of seven laws. (The Bible records just one, but it was one that came with a penalty. A second guideline concerned what could be eaten.) A thousand years later, these laws were expanded and became the Law of Moses. For the first time, people were expected to follow a common set of guidelines. All peoples were handed the Noahide laws after the flood. The Israelites, specifically, were handed the Mosaic laws.
Here we are today, 4350 years after the flood. Without a common law (the humanistic mindset), mankind lasted only 1650 years. So again, my question is, who or what will determine the sense of direction we need? Each person doing his/her own thing, listening to his/her inner compass, certainly doesn't work. We already know people don't agree with one another. If we haven't reached common concurrence in the "millions" of years we've been evolving, just when do you expect our minds and hearts will become one with rational thought and scientific inquiry?
What (or who) is going to provide the sense of direction you claim we need? Philosophers can't agree on idealogical issues. Scientists don't agree on scientific conclusions. Politicians don't agree with each other. Neighbors disagree with neighbors; states, with states; countries, with countries. When mankind is left to it's own devices and ideas, chaos and destruction ultimately occurs. Rational thought and scientific inquiry aren't magically going to make people agree. Charismatic leaders or charlatans will rise up to rally the people around them, and secular wars will be fought; however, with no moral absolutes, even more people will die.
I know you don't believe the Biblical record, and that is fine. Others do, however, so I'm going to use an example to illustrate my point. (This is for illustration only and not to debate the accuracy of the Bible, so please don't go there.)
When creation occurred, Adam and Eve were given only one rule: don't eat the forbidden fruit. They did. Although I believe God must have given them some general guidelines while walking with them in the garden, there weren't formal rules laid out. In the New Testament, we are told that God has written His word on our hearts, so these early peoples must have had an "inner compass." Fast forward 1650 years. Mankind had been living in what was originally a perfect world. However, they didn't have a formal set of rules. Everyone did what he thought was right in his own eyes, ignoring that "inner compass." The result: They were so evil that God destroyed the world with a flood.
According to the Talmud, Noah was given a set of seven laws. (The Bible records just one, but it was one that came with a penalty. A second guideline concerned what could be eaten.) A thousand years later, these laws were expanded and became the Law of Moses. For the first time, people were expected to follow a common set of guidelines. All peoples were handed the Noahide laws after the flood. The Israelites, specifically, were handed the Mosaic laws.
Here we are today, 4350 years after the flood. Without a common law (the humanistic mindset), mankind lasted only 1650 years. So again, my question is, who or what will determine the sense of direction we need? Each person doing his/her own thing, listening to his/her inner compass, certainly doesn't work. We already know people don't agree with one another. If we haven't reached common concurrence in the "millions" of years we've been evolving, just when do you expect our minds and hearts will become one with rational thought and scientific inquiry?
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Blueberry again. Dang it!
I'm on pins and needles, waiting for the response!
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More war fueled by false promises! Faith in their fellow man led to unimaginable horrors. 
