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Continued from previous.....
Fifth, the wildlife and environment-
The ecosystem will be put to the test if these turbines are erected. A large swath of forest will be razed, and enormous quantities of cement will be poured. The natural run-off patterns of rain and melting snow will be disrupted in ways that cannot be predicted. Tampering with the bedrock to construct the turbine foundations has caused contamination and changes to ground water at some sites. The turbines will displace wildlife, and as with all things natural, repercussions will be felt up and down the food chain.
Bird kills are of significant concern. There have been thousands of documented cases where whole flocks of migrating birds, including endangered populations, have been devastated by the rotating blades. These kills differ significantly from the threat posed by stationary objects (such a buildings) because the movement of the blades may actually attract predatory birds.
Sixth-Fires, blades breaking, and colapses. Fires, the energy company says it is the towns problem. What town up here has equipment to get the the turbine let alone raise a ladder up 425 feet to get the fire? NONE-the turbine would be left to burn out-what about all of us who would live next to them? Ever been up here in the dry season? What a mess that scenerio would make. Several people could loose everything as the entire forest and field burn. The blades spin at over 200mph, an can and have brooken off-flying at deadly speed until it lands? Who protects the people from that. And collapses, yes they do collapse. I pray they don't fall my way.
The problem is not only "viewshed" and property values, though we all will lose our biggest asset-the value of our home, if they come here. The problem is with the actual idea. Wind energy is good and works, if built in the thousands to harness enough wind to make a difference. 30 of 60 turbines all over our mountians does hardly anything. The farms in Europe are very large, and some in non-populated areas. We just can't build enough to make a difference.
This is fancy boiler-room **** people, these private energy companies that crop up over night are SNAKE-OIL salesmen. They sit in a room with phones and call all day, finding the next sucker. They look for poor towns and couties with no zoning laws and make promises of big bucks and clean energy. The only ones making the money are them. In several cases, the PILOTs that were promised to towns have not been paid yet, many years later. In otherwords, the towns, the schools, the leaseholders have not been paid a DIME. What often happens is the companies that start the projects disappear, selling the leases to another company, and so on and so on. None of these companies have accountability, or financial track records for that matter, and the townsfolk are left holding the bag of doo doo. As an example, guess what company was the LARGEST wind-turbine manufacturer and seller a few years ago.......ENRON. GE bought the division when ENRON went under. Now Enron is a business you could have trusted, just ask all their old employees.
Threats of "better than a nuclear power plant" don't fly-we have not been given a choice between A and B.These Shylocks roll into town trying to take advange of the "old farmers" It is sickening to me and many others.
OK, off the sop box. I just wanted to provide some REAL information on this issue so everyone can know the facts, not the "it is so pretty" propaganda.
More information on the Catskill area can be found on many local websites that have been created. Andes, Bovina, Stamford, Merrideth, Western New York, Upstate New York all have them. I will not post the links, just do a search and you can find what you want.
And finally, Hello neighbor in Andes, thanks for posting this, I joined the forum to respond! See you at Cassie's!
Last edited by JustSayNo; 10-19-2006 at 01:37 PM..
Reason: typos
Continued from previous.....
Fifth, the wildlife and environment-
The ecosystem will be put to the test if these turbines are erected. A large swath of forest will be razed, and enormous quantities of cement will be poured. The natural run-off patterns of rain and melting snow will be disrupted in ways that cannot be predicted. Tampering with the bedrock to construct the turbine foundations has caused contamination and changes to ground water at some sites. The turbines will displace wildlife, and as with all things natural, repercussions will be felt up and down the food chain.
Bird kills are of significant concern. There have been thousands of documented cases where whole flocks of migrating birds, including endangered populations, have been devastated by the rotating blades. These kills differ significantly from the threat posed by stationary objects (such a buildings) because the movement of the blades may actually attract predatory birds.
Sixth-Fires, blades breaking, and colapses. Fires, the energy company says it is the towns problem. What town up here has equipment to get the the turbine let alone raise a ladder up 425 feet to get the fire? NONE-the turbine would be left to burn out-what about all of us who would live next to them? Ever been up here in the dry season? What a mess that scenerio would make. Several people could loose everything as the entire forest and field burn. The blades spin at over 200mph, an can and have brooken off-flying at deadly speed until it lands? Who protects the people from that. And collapses, yes they do collapse. I pray they don't fall my way.
The problem is not only "viewshed" and property values, though we all will lose our biggest asset-the value of our home, if they come here. The problem is with the actual idea. Wind energy is good and works, if built in the thousands to harness enough wind to make a difference. 30 of 60 turbines all over our mountians does hardly anything. The farms in Europe are very large, and some in non-populated areas. We just can't build enough to make a difference.
This is fancy boiler-room **** people, these private energy companies that crop up over night are SNAKE-OIL salesmen. They sit in a room with phones and call all day, finding the next sucker. They look for poor towns and couties with no zoning laws and make promises of big bucks and clean energy. The only ones making the money are them. In several cases, the PILOTs that were promised to towns have not been paid yet, many years later. In otherwords, the towns, the schools, the leaseholders have not been paid a DIME. What often happens is the companies that start the projects disappear, selling the leases to another company, and so on and so on. None of these companies have accountability, or financial track records for that matter, and the townsfolk are left holding the bag of doo doo. As an example, guess what company was the LARGEST wind-turbine manufacturer and seller a few years ago.......ENRON. GE bought the division when ENRON went under. Now Enron is a business you could have trusted, just ask all their old employees.
Threats of "better than a nuclear power plant" don't fly-we have not been given a choice between A and B.These Shylocks roll into town trying to take advange of the "old farmers" It is sickening to me and many others.
OK, off the sop box. I just wanted to provide some REAL information on this issue so everyone can know the facts, not the "it is so pretty" propaganda.
More information on the Catskill area can be found on many local websites that have been created. Andes, Bovina, Stamford, Merrideth, Western New York, Upstate New York all have them. I will not post the links, just do a search and you can find what you want.
There are so many falsehoods in your statements above that I will just reply with a few questions instead.
1. Do you drive a car?
2. Do you use a cell phone?
3. Does your house have windows?
4. Do you have a cat or dog?
If you do, then you are contributing to the things that kill 9,999 out of 10,000 things that are man made or influenced by man that kill birds.
While there have been some shady, unethical business deals in the wind industry, which is regrettable. (Look up FLIP finincing). To say that is the way that the whole industry behaves, is a prime example of how you are choosing to present your information. That would be like starting a campaign against all automobiles just because some salesman convinced you to buy the $1000 rust protection undercoating, it is just not logical.
p.s. The foundations for the largest turbines are not four acres, they are 50-75 feet across and 35-45 feet deep. Also, they are so well spaced (separated by 4 times the ROTOR diameter at the closest) thus will have very little effect on the water tables etc. of the area.
I live near the Maple Ridge Wind Farm and it has brought tax revenue into the area but of course because the government loves to spend money Lewis County taxes have gone up. Some people like them, some don't. Personally I think they look pretty neat on the horizon and they are just huge up close. I also know that it has helped some farmers keep their land too. Jefferson County is in the process of getting a wind farm also near Harrisville. Google Maple Ridge wind farm and read about it, pretty interesting.
Pretty much point by point the same complaints in Just Say No's iteration of the problems with wind turbines can also be said, and to a far, far greater extent about every other currently viable form of energy generation. And if you think these wind-energy companies are using underhanded techniques to get their hands on leases, land, tax-breaks, etc. etc. take a look at how the coal industry operates. Or the oil industry, Or the nuclear power industry.
Other than the viewshed complaints and the myth of massive 'bird-kills,' all of these complaints are political, organizational and financial. Business is what it is, and it's mandate is to exploit whomever and whatever it can to maximize profits. They may be marginal at present, but these businesses project hefty profits in the future of wind energy, and it will come whether we like it or not, especially as long as there are desperate and financially strapped farmers/landowners. And as long is the implementation of wind energy is in the hands of outside, private corporations, we'll have very little local control over it (not to mention little local benefit). How many times have locals gone to their town councils, etc. to object to this, that or the other outside developer's plan only to see it pushed through anyway?
One solution is preemption (though it's likely too late for that now)- a local or county-owned collective, perhaps non-profit, for wind power generation. Give landowners a big tax break for allowing a turbine. Keep the management, administration and maintenance local. Feed the energy into the grid locally, giving local residents lower energy prices, and sell the surplus, if any, into the grid at large.
HoneyChrome-Excellent post, and you hit the nail(s) on the head. Reality is, everyone has an opinion on this issue, some are for, some are against, and some have no opinion at all. It is pointless to try and argue or change a person's mind-as everyone has the right to think for themselves.
I don't oppose wind power, what I do Oppose is where the companies want to place the turbines, how they go about getting the sites, the destruction that is caused, and the lack of sticking to the financial commitments that they have made. I also disagree with the fact that the companies come into areas with desperate and financially strapped, and often very long-term land owners, and basically take advantage of their situation. And you are right, Business operates on the mandate to exploit for profit-Capitalism 101.
I wish that more viable areas were targeted (like unoccupied, large, flat lands) so that enough of the monsters could be erected to actually generate enough power to make a difference in the grid. What they want to do in this area just simply is not enough to harness enough wind to actually balance the cost of building and operating. I live on one of the targeted ridges, and I can assure you that a meaningful wind has not blown in a few weeks. In non-wind times like now, a diesel generator located at a substation would be turning the rotors for the past two weeks. That is not "free" power, nor is it green.
And, the lease deals in this area are accross the board, some get 3K a year, some as high as 10K a year. How is that fair to the landowners? The price was set based on how difficult it was to get the lease signed. And than there are the PILOTs instead of taxes to the towns, so our taxes will not be lowered, and in many cases have gone up in other towns. And finally, the small amount of power that will be captured will promptly go downstate, we get none of it, our power price will not be lowered. So after all that one has to ask, why are we the ones that are being stronghanded? Because they think they can.
I agree with preemption, and it may not be too late. It is complicated however and education is key. The problem is the way this situation has been presented makes the landowners feel like they have no other choice-sign a lease, get a few thousand bucks and save the farm. In our area, we collectively would like to work together on saving the farms-coming up with alternatives like residential windmills (NOT Turbines at 410 ft tall) at 125 feet. That would enable individuals to harness their own energy. Or, re-tool the existing farms to offer the owner alternative ways of making a living. Or look into other alternative energy ideas. At least with the power lines, eminent domain took away any option, the landowners HAD no choice. The precident was set for being "told" what to do-and you are correct it is all big business, politics, and someone else making millions. That is the sorest point, we are not sharecroppers at the mercy of the "big man." We are landowners.
Regardless, it is up to the towns' boards now to either enact a Zoning plan that allows or does not allow such construction projects. Andes, Bovina, Stamford, and Merideth are at that stage. Roxbury has zoning laws but the outcome is unclear since Invenergy has a project for 40+Turbines between Roxbury and Stamford already lined up. It is all about the money, and much in how many pockets you have.
We will have to wait and see. But, please understand that if you are not living in the path of these 410 ft. towers, with a rotor diameter larger than a 747, they may look pretty from a few miles away and it may be difficult to understand what all the fuss is about. Try to imagine living a few 100 yards away from a structure that is taller than the statue of liberty, that constantly generates a rather loud noise, as well as the substation they are hooked up to. If your preference is an urban environment, this might not be an issue.
And to clarify for William, I did not say the pads were four acres, I said the "site" for one turbine required nearly four acres of clear cutting-for the pad and for the "well spacing" you mention between turbines. I said that the Pad required 500-tons of concrete (as stated by Invenergy in their presentation to the town-straight from the horses mouth). The four acres is fact and is well documented in the Mountaineer (WV) wind project. It was also estimated by Invenergy in their presentation.
I have to disagree that the proposed wind farms won't generate any meaningful amount of energy- Invenergy and the other companies leaning hard to build these things have to have calculated a meaningful profit, and that profit has to come from generated energy. Well, OK, maybe they've set up a scheme whereby they get the county, state or fed. to subsidize the projects, take their profits from that, and when the farms don't generate a profit the town/county is left holding the bag (I think that's Capitalism 201; privatize profit, socialize losses!). But that's a particularly cynical view- I think they actually do see meaningful profits here.
Personally I wouldn't want a turbine on my land UNLESS I got my share of the energy generated before the excess gets transmitted downstate or wherever. But, we are rapidly approaching a crisis point in terms of the environmental impact of fossil fuel energy generation as well as the supply of that fuel, and I believe wind power has to be a part of the solution. Individually owned windmills are a good idea, but I suspect the wind power density for most locations will be too low, especially if the height is limited to 125 ft. But maybe there is a middle ground of modeslty high turbines providing power directly to the neighborhood(s) in which they're located. Wishful thinking.
Still, something along the lines of these wind farms is an inevitability and I fear that a lot of energy gets wasted on fighting the whole idea (then it ultimately gets rammed down our throats), instead of saying OK, this change is going to happen in some shape and form, how can we organize ourselves so that it happens in a way that the local community has some control over and can benefit from...
Just Say No, I'm interested in what you have going on to try and save the remaining farms in the area. Is there an organized group?
Honeychrome-first I appreciate your civilized message board approach-allowing the sharing of information and opinions for all to benefit and learn from! This is especially important when it comes to an emotional subject such as wind turbines, a subject that both sides feel very strongly about, and a subject that can turn kind humans into snarling beasts in record time!
Your Capitalism 201 theory on how the money is made is a pretty good account as far as I can find in my research. It is my understanding that the wind projects gained steam and interest when NYS announced the huge tax incentives and subsidies for companies that developed such projects. We all know the two "hot issues" in the politics game is the war and fossil fuel dependency.
To provide some information, I have copied the text below from: www.aweo.org/. This is just some of it, but maybe it will help with the economics of why this has become the "thing to do" Alos, this will be broken into several posts.
"Big money" discovers the huge tax breaks and subsidies for wind energy while taxpayers and electric customers pick up the tab
Glenn Schleede, April 14, 2005
"Introduction
Recent events confirm that "big money" interests in the US and Europe have discovered the enormously generous tax breaks and subsidies that are now available in the US for producing electricity with wind turbines. These organizations are moving aggressively to build "wind farms" and to seek more subsidies.
Moderator cut: copyrights - please don't copy whole articles
I thank you for posting that, lengthy as it was. I am a little bit skeptical of the author, given his history in the fossil fuel industry, but I am also now much more skeptical of the wind-energy industry. I did suspect the possibility that there was some kind of a subsidy or tax-break **** behind it all but perhaps naively hoped that wasn't the case. I suppose when it comes to 'big business' a **** of some sort is a given.
Sorry Yac, I thought giving the url, the title, the author and clearly stating that I was "crossposting" was enough since the article is all over the web.
At least HoneyChrome got the opportunity to read it.
Along those lines, HoneyChrome, I felt terrible it was so **** long, but I knew that I had to clearly state these were not my opinions, and to re-write Mr Schleede's observations would not have been appropriate.
Thanks for taking the time and interest to gather information before forming an opinion!
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Thanks
