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Many of you seem to not comprehend the history of Penn Station and commercial property in general for that matter.
The Pennsylvania RR built their new station and head house to serve a specific purpose at the height of its fortunes. You do not "need" a grandiose building to be RR station no more than you do for an office building. However companies build such things for various reasons, mostly bragging rights.
Neither New York City nor New York State wanted Penn Station back in the early 1960's when it was offered for sale. Another buyer did purchase the air rights and land basically not only injecting Penn RR with much needed funds, but took the burden of owning and maintaining that barn of a building off their hands.
The last years of Penn Station it was a grimy, dirty and falling apart hot mess. Much like Grand Central Terminal. When the late Jackie Kennedy and the "preservationist" movement got themselves involved to "save" GCT they and the City had to come up with a way to fund the place. Thus NYS via the MTA came in and signed a *very* long term lease and put millions of taxpayer and bonded money into restoration, maintenance and otherwise "saving" GCT. Make no mistake about it, had NYS not stepped in the place would be the same hot mess as NYP was before it came down.
The City is having a hard enough time coming up with funding to complete the late Senator Moynihan folly of turning the Farley Post Office into a "new" Penn Station. Senator Charles Schumer ( a man who never saw a works project unworthy of federal funds) is pushing Amtrak and the FRA to come up with nearly one half billion (more or less) to fund the second phase of that project. Yeah, good luck with that one. Amtrak has its own funding problems and there is little love in much of the federal government to keep pouring money into NYS/NYC infrastructure projects. This could have something to with the fact the feds are providing funding for the Second Avenue Subway, Long Island Access, and IIRC the 7 Line extension.
So *where* will the 2 or so billion come from to rebuild the old Penn Station on the same site?
Off the bat you can forget the 2 or even 3 billion number. No infrastructure project in the history of NYC or NYS ever comes in at or under budget. So taking the 3 million as a conservative estimate and raise it to four or even five and that *should* get you there.
Then comes the problem who is going to fund ongoing maintenance and support of this new station? Amtrak certainly does not have the money. Saying LIRR, New York City Transit/MTA etc... will is simply another way of saying New York rate payers will be on the hook for yet another feel good blue stocking project.
The landmark/preservationist movement in NYC will not rest until they see what they believe a "wrong" made right. Problem is neither they nor anyone else outside that movement sees things that way. But that is the NYC Landmarks/Preservation movement in a nutshell. Ready to dictate how something should be "saved" even if it is private property.
When I see pictures of old Penn Station it makes me think, man it must have cost a lot of beans to maintain such a huge place. But I regret that I never saw it.
As for today: Never mind spending 3 billion for a new building, just open some better restaurants and food stands in the concourse! The other day I ate at some crappy Jamaican Jerk stand and not only was the thing almost inedible, it gave me diarrhea.
"The penn station eagles are the freaking market street bridge for crying out loud. No one has vision anymore."
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There are Penn Station eagles in Philly?
You do know there are two outside Penn Station, by the 7th Avenue stairways, to this day.
While the building may have been "beautiful" and so forth, from day one Pennsylvania Station was not very good at the function for which it was designed, the movement of persons to and from trains. In contrast however New York Central's Grand Central Terminal is of a much better design and it shows.
Penn Station then and today requires the use of stairs to access the rail platforms. This leads to a very congested flow of persons and causes congestion.
OTOH GCT uses gradually sloping ramps, no stairs at all to reach train platforms. Not only is this easier for persons to navigate but they can do so with the luggage, carts and everything else that comes with travel by rail.
It is said you can get in and around GCT including down to the platforms without bumping into another person. This is simply not possible at NYP then or now, again because of those stairs.
This is why sensible persons see the whole "new" Penn Station either at current location and or that Farley Building as a feel good project. The actual Penn Station never left 34th Street, it is there beneath MSG with all its design faults. What persons want to do is spend billions to improve the view before going to the trains or coming up from them, but that will not deal with the crowds and traffic management problems. The tracks, platforms, access ways etc... all would remain the same. Just as they did when the old head house was torn down.
In order to truly remake NYP and fix many problems would require tearing down the *entire* structure and digging/building a totally new station from the ground up. That would not only require new tunnels but the obtaining land around NYP/MSG. Mid-Town West land isn't going cheap. Even with eminent domain it would cost plenty to secure such land.
Bugsypal, the 7 train extension is entirely funded by the city, no federal. It also doesn't matter whether the feds want to fund any more city projects or not. You are not in charge of securing funding. Let those that know how to do it, do it. If everyone was like you and talk themselves into how things can't get done, then things would never get done.
You are wrong about Landmarks-Preservation groups. Except for a few enthusiast, there is no groundswell preservation landmarks movement calling for a Penn Station rebuilt to its former glory.
Bugsypal, the 7 train extension is entirely funded by the city, no federal. It also doesn't matter whether the feds want to fund any more city projects or not. You are not in charge of securing funding. Let those that know how to do it, do it. If everyone was like you and talk themselves into how things can't get done, then things would never get done.
You are wrong about Landmarks-Preservation groups. Except for a few enthusiast, there is no groundswell preservation landmarks movement calling for a Penn Station rebuilt to its former glory.
"You are not in charge of securing funding."
No **** Sherlock. But it is my tax dollars that goes towards these projects thus have every right to voice my opinion. You sound like a true bleeding heart liberal; spend, spend, spend.
You are wrong about Landmarks-Preservation groups. Except for a few enthusiast, there is no groundswell preservation landmarks movement calling for a Penn Station rebuilt to its former glory.
No **** Sherlock. But it is my tax dollars that goes towards these projects thus have every right to voice my opinion. You sound like a true bleeding heart liberal; spend, spend, spend.
Well, guess what? If those tax dollars of yours doesn't go towards city projects, then it would go towards projects in other states and cities. Either way, it will get spent somewhere and if that is going to be the case, wouldn't it be more beneficial for you that it is spent improving something here that you can use instead of building some highway to nowhere in Montana?
You don't. The Dolans own the building and the land MSG occupies. They would have to be paid at minimum market value and be provided with the land and more tax breaks to move. It's not like the city or state could seize the land and roll over the Dolans either. Remember these are the same people who single habdily beat back Bloomberg's West Side highway stadium.
The city had it's chance to move MSG 10 years ago to the post office site but screwed it up so back in 08' the Dolan's announced a billion dollar renovation of MSG's interior which was completed in 2013. In an effort to prepare the Dolan's to move MSG only allowed MSG a 10 year operating permit in 2012. Normally those permits have been issued for 20 year spans. Personally I can't see MSG being moved in the next 7 years. the plans for a new building would have to be finalized soon and construction would have to begin. Figure it would take 2 to 3 years to build a new facility and the land hasn't even been secured for it yet.
The Dolans DO NOT own the land on which MSG sits on. The land belongs to Penn Station. MSG owns the air rights. The city WILL eventually force move MSG to move. As train ridership continues is steady march upwards, Penn Station will NEED to be reconstructed to accommodate future passenger growth. It's already bursting at the seams as it is. A modern, efficient transit hub is more important to the city than a sports complex that can be moved anywhere else. The only question is when, but I think it's safe to say MSG won't move for at least another 10 years.
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