YRT2 Arena (Columbia, Charleston, Myrtle Beach: transplants, real estate, lease)

[thesandlapper1791]

Can someone explain what actually happened to the YRT2 Arena plans? The arena that was supposed to house the ECHL ice hockey team Myrtle Beach Thunderboltz.


Any info would be great. I see a small stub on Wikipedia, but was hoping someone could explain why the plans fell through.

[NS_Highlander]

I have heard a bunch of different theories on this one. Everything from the ECHL wouldn't be viable here to Borroughs and Chapin who have a stranglehold on most of the land around here.

I can understand how a ECHL team may not work here, but an area this size desperately needs an ice rink. If a city could work with a private investor we could have 2 sheets of ice for locals to play hockey on, ice skate, and public skate. Not to mention CCU would have a team for the public to watch. This could be done for about 7 million, which would be a deal. But, people will balk at this price tag, but not blink at the 13 million that was spent on a giant Ferris wheel or an upside down house that has no local benefit other than some low paying jobs. Lets not forget about the useless, empty half billion dollar Hardrock/Freestyle park. Local "Good ol boy" politicians aggressively fight for crap like this, but passively sit on their hands when it comes to "northern" things such as rinks.

It's not the frozen water they resent, it's the people that use that frozen water.....

[CTyankee54]

I would remind you that the Ferris wheel, upside down house and Hardrock were all paid for by private enterprises because they thought they could make money. What people balk at is public money being spent on projects which cannot support themselves and must be supported by tax dollars. If a private investor thought that they could work in partnership with the city to build a rink (or any other project) and make some money, they would be lining up to do so. The reality is that hockey is a niche market on the Grand Strand and there's not enough people in the niche that will spend money on it to make it a viable business. I'm from the north myself and like hockey but I don't want my tax dollars spent creating a venue that cannot pay for itself.

And as for politicians sitting on their hands when it comes to "northern" things, it could be because "northern" things would not be supported financially in the south (how many major league hockey teams have failed in the south?). We chose to live in the south in a relatively small community, we need to adapt to the things that southerners enjoy. Otherwise, we should move back north (and I include myself in that statement). We don't live in a suburb of NYC, Boston, Philly or any other relatively large city. We live in the Grand Strand and should work to improve it where we can but also realize it's never going to be (culturally or sports-wise) a large or even medium size city.

I'll get off my soap box now.....

[NS_Highlander]

First off, nobody around here is asking for a 50 million, 10,000 seat ECHL arena like this would have been. We are asking for a 1 or 2 sheet ice complex which would range between 4-7 million dollars. There are enough locals and tourists here to support this, and would be much cheaper than the 13 million EACH spent on the recent tourist crap I just cited, with little repeat use from either tourists or locals.

Nobody is asking "tax dollars" to be spent on a community asset such as an ice rink. The problem with "private enterprise" around here building a rink is all the good land is monopolized by "Borroughs and Chapin" which they will only lease for big bucks. With the overhead in running a rink, and the necessity of a good location- nobody in their right mind would invest in such a venture here. My point is the local governments around here (and we elect them to help the people and prosper their communities) should try to get a cheap land lease for a rink investor as it would be a community asset and a place for all to enjoy- especially the kids. I am just asking that they try and "facilitate" such investment. Myrtle Beach just spent into the tens of millions of dollars on ballfields, I am sure they could cheaply lease a chunk of land to bring in such a sports facility which would provide jobs and bring sports tourism in the form of tournaments to the area.... But, for those who are sitting at home polishing their nickles and dimes worried about a small subsidy to a busy local rink, I should remind them that not having community amenities like this is a indirect tax on their property value. I have had northerners tell me they won't move here, because there is no ice. Sadly, others are looking to leave...

Another point, is I am much closer to the people who have directly dealt with local politicians and how this issue has been handled here. I know different people who have tried pitching the idea, one of whom had money behind him at the time, and an 85 page business proposal. The Horry county "Good ol Boy" said, "We don't need hockey here boy" and basically laughed him out of his office. No questions, no feasibility study, no learning more about it, just close minded ignorance and a set of boots up on the desk. So, I don't want to hear "not enough people" or that this would not be financially viable arguments, because nobody in government has ever looked into the idea or tried to study and learn more about it.

I will be the first to agree that the ECHL coming here would not work. No argument there. Their are larger Canadian cities that would not support such a thing. That would have been a 50 Million arena (which would be a drain if that were put on tax payers) with salaries to pay. But, there is nobody that is going to convince me that with the amount of Canadian and American snowbirds that come here, the tourists, the current hockey community, the northern transplants that are here and not to mention the growth that would occur that a single facility- it would not work. Most families here have northern roots and who is to say some of the Southern kids wouldn't give it a chance? If you build it, they'll come.

I will also remind you that the cities you mention have several rinks in the suburbs. Nobody is saying that the per capita numbers have to be projected here. But, one small facility would work. But, once again, the deck has been stacked against anyone investing here.

Few more things. Tourists on cruise ships go skating, they could do that here. There would be more repeat customers doing this, than spending $20+ at upside down houses or ferris wheels. Also, there are 280,000 residents of Horry Georgetown county. Prince Edward Island has HALF the people they do here (140,000) with the same geographic size with a much smaller tax base (because it is a small tourist and agricultural economy), yet they support 27 skating rinks and 7 curling rinks for a grand total of 35 ice surfaces in villages as small as 500 people that you won't even find on a map. The taxpayers pick up the tab if the rinks don't make money, but I have never heard of it ever being a burden for even the smallest villages. Now before you patronize me and say "that is there, this is here", I want to make 2 points. 1. I am not saying you have to have 3 dozen rinks here, and I am not saying that places such as Loris, and Aynor or any other armpit need their own rink! All we need is just ONE for the Myrtle beach area for a whole cross section of sports not to mention CCU varsity hockey to watch (possibly Horry Georgetown Tech). Yes, CCU does have a hockey team, but they have to play inline while all their local natural competition in Charleston, Columbia, Wilmington and beyond all play on ice. Secondly, here is a list of countries (some of them very poor) that have ice rinks in them:

Egypt, Tunisia, Egypt, Greece, South Africa, Andorra, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Brazil, Chile, South Korea, Dubai, United Arab Emirates, Singapore, Maccu, Mexico, Malaysia, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Grenada, Argentina, Tunisia, Bahrain, Bolivia, Brunei, Columbia, Ecuador, Fiji, Guatemala, Honduras, Israel, Kuwait, Nambia, Ivory Coast, Libya, Malawi, India, Nigeria, North Korea, Cyprus, Pakistan, Phillipines, Purto Rico, Singapore, Syria, Uganda, Uruguay

These aren't the suburbs of NYC, Boston or Philly either. Nambia has 2.1 million people on continental africa and support 2 ice rinks, which is very close to the rink per resident ratio here in South Carolina!

I have no problem people having to adapt to the things the Southerners enjoy. But, the problem is when they don't want to adapt to the things that others enjoy or passively aggressively try to deprive them of that. That is when people start to have problems. Sadly, this is the message that has been sent to the "ice rink" community here...

[CTyankee54]

I won't attempt to address all of your points but do have a few questions.
1. Why did the investor with the 85 page business plan not go ahead with his plan if he had the money?
2. Why is it the role of government to obtain a cheap land lease for private rink? A competitor could claim favoritism.
3. Isn't comparing MB to Prince Edward Island like comparing apples and oranges? Last I checked, PEI is in a pretty cold part of the world which is in the heart of hockey country.

I'm all for a private enterprise building a rink and government should not discourage it but it also should not subsidize it. But, I'm also not in favor of government trying to foster something that doesn't have enough support (like the performing arts center at the civic center...the group wanting to "build" that can't even raise their portion of the money).--sorry, that's not a good comparison I know.

[NS_Highlander]

First off, the guy who had the 85 page plan is working on trying to get a deal struck with a municipality in the Grand Strand as we speak. So we may even have some community leaders in the area that see the benefit that you don't. But, that is all I am going to discuss.
If you had properly read my last statement you would realize that there is a monopoly here and the price gouge wouldn't justify anyone constructing it. A rink runs various athletic programs that can be utilized by kids, teenagers and adults. There is such a community benefit from such facilities that it is worth it for any community to have it. Providing cheap land for it isn't a "subsidy". Facilitating things is what economic development agencies do everyday. Ice rinks can support themselves, but because of overhead costs, they will never be big money makers, and if you put one here I don't think anyone would have to worry about it spoiling "competition". The city of Myrtle Beach owns ballfields, gyms, pools, soccer fields, even a inline hockey rink. I understand that the cities don't understand "Ice", but if they don't want to build it themselves, than why can't they provide land just as they did for the rest of the aforementioned activities? If you waited for the private sector to build the amenities I just listed, it wouldn't get done because there isn't enough money in that either. Filling in such gaps, is why we elect municipal governments.

Secondly, I am all for Capitalism, but when you have an out of control real estate company that monopolizes and price gouges with the support of the good ol boy networks that run most of these towns, that is a form of corporatism. The deck is stacked and the game is rigged.

Thirdly, if you had once again properly read my post instead of just skimming it, you would have read that PEI has HALF the people and 35 rinks, is 1 ice surface for every 4000 people, where here it is 1 for atleast every million. Villages as small as 500 people can support them, and locals there don't cry about their nickles and dimes- they are glad their community has one. So, I don't see how it wouldn't work in a area this size. I never said we needed 35 here, but it is ridiculous that we can't have just 1. CCU has 2 hockey teams that can't even play on ice. We have the rink per citizen ratio of the African country of Nambia in this regressive state. This was never meant to be an "apples to apples" comparison, but serves to educate someone who knows little about ice rinks a lesson in feasibility.

Fourthy, Your mentality is proof of the adage, "if you spend enough time somewhere, you will become one of them". In the city the size of Myrtle Beach of 30,000, providing a cheap land lease for a rink helping pay with tourist taxes, it would amount to a matter of a couple of dollars a resident- if that. I will also argue, that not having amenities such as this, is hidden tax on your property value, as people that want to do something besides lounge around on the beach (and would otherwise move here) move somewhere else.... I would tell anyone that if they don't want to pay a couple of extra tax dollars for amenities in their communities, move a couple of hours inland to some of these towns that are like second world countries where they have none...

Fifthly, The city spent millions on and are running baseball fields. What if I wanted to buy land and set up my own privately run ballfield? Doesn't this put ME at a disadvantage also? Why aren't you crying about the fact that the city has saturated the market?

So, if you want to sit home and polish your nickles and dimes and deprive the community of jobs and the children of the area of a community asset, over a piece of land the size of a couple of soccer fields and with the amount of pocket change you would hand a bum- than that is your own selfish prerogative. But, at the end of the day you are not helping your own real estate values in this stagnant local housing market....

[CTyankee54]

This will be my last post on this subject. I simply asked a few what I considered valid questions and get insulted rather than a civil discussion. It's interesting how in one post you say noone would listen to the guy with the business plan (and create the impression that was the end of the story) but when questioned, we find that we were left with the wrong impression.

Anyway, good luck with your crusade.

[NS_Highlander]

Originally Posted by CTyankee54

This will be my last post on this subject. I simply asked a few what I considered valid questions and get insulted rather than a civil discussion. It's interesting how in one post you say noone would listen to the guy with the business plan (and create the impression that was the end of the story) but when questioned, we find that we were left with the wrong impression.

Anyway, good luck with your crusade.

I apologize for the mean manner in which I came across, but when I get asked questions to answers I have already given, than I don't feel the questions are sincere. I felt you were being argumentative. The problem with "Blogs" is they don't convey emotion, so it is easy for people to get the wrong impression on what the other is trying to convey.

I personally have not dealt with different municipalities, but those that have, have been very congenial. They have dealt with the narrow mindedness, the prejudice, the ignorance, research-less based decisions and lame arguments. So, if I appear a bit short, it is the shared frustration people have of dealing with this.

As far as the guy with the business plan, he is dealing with a different governing body than Horry county and the new proposal was a recent development that I learned of in the last couple of days. So, are they going to atleast listen to him? YES! That is one better than the county would even do. Are they going to make a bunch of lame arguments based on no research? That remains to be seen....