Which comics have attractive female characters: Dc or marvel?

[AFtrEFkt]

Finally getting around to this...

Originally Posted by Mark S.

Do you mean "stacks up" in terms of power? Not interested, because the fisticuffs are the least interesting aspect of superheroes to me. "Who would win in a fight --- Wonder Woman or Phoenix?" Honestly, I don't care, because my enjoyment isn't about the fighting. It's about the emotional conflict and complexities, and Marvel heroines are far more interesting psychologically than Wonder Woman ever was.

This is what I trying to get you to define: the parameters of your argument.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Just take the First Lady of Marvel as one example: Sue Storm. Arguably the most powerful member of the FF, but her greatest strength was not her super powers. It was her compassion. All of Reed's brilliance, and the Thing's strength, and Johnny's courage couldn't defeat Galactus and his herald. It was Sue Storm's compassion that turned the tide. Her mercy. And she was always the true heart of that team anyway.

I enjoyed John Byrne's run on FF. There were a few years there, in the early '80s, when it was a legitimately interesting title.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Elektra wasn't interesting because she was a sexy assassin (or at least not exclusively so). She was interesting because she was a tortured villain. A real antagonist who had some sympathetic qualities.

And she's Frank Miller's creation. Keep that in mind. She's one of Marvel's best characters of either sex.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Phoenix was interesting because you had a super heroine who was gradually being turned in to a super villain.

Except she wasn't a super-"villain" so much as an unpredictable, uncontrollable entity that had to be snuffed in order to secure the future of anyone vulnerable to it. And it's very much a riff on Harlan Ellison's classic Star Trek episode "The City on the Edge of Forever" (his original, unfilmed script where Kirk, not McCoy, actually tries to save Edith). It wasn't original, but it was well done. The problem was that after that, Uncanny X-Men began a slow, gradual downslide that, IMO, it never recovered from, though I continued to read it.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Dagger of Cloak and Dagger was interesting because the stories dealt with a lot of issues of teen homelessness and drug use.

Cloak and Dagger were hence symbolized, yes. I read their first appearance when it was brand new (in fact, I still have that issue, in my "the very well-read copies" box! And yes, I did like that tandem, but at the time I was also heavily into Daredevil and the other "urban" heroes like Power Man and Iron Fist. I liked that whole dynamic.

But hey, does Dagger not have a REALLY form-fitting outfit? The strategically-placed crossguard was probably influenced by the design of Power Girl's outfit. Hehe.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Wonder Woman dresses like a stripper, ties people up, forces them to tell the truth, and then calls it female empowerment. I never bought it. Yes, I know there are exceptions throughout the decades. But those are exceptions, not the rule. The basic foundation of Wonder Woman has always struck me as more than a little creepy. And when you read about the guy who created her, it goes into Major Creepy Territory.

No, you got a Woodrow while you were typing that. I betcha!

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I never could get in to YES. But then again, I never did hard drugs.

I got into Yes, but I've never done hard drugs. The hardest stuff I do is caffeine.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

YES was a lot like RUSH --- brilliant musicians who made boring music. With those two bands, the parts were always greater than the whole.

Geez, Louise. You talk like somebody who never heard any Rush after 2112 and never heard any Yes after Fragile. Admittedly, those are fine albums but the music they recorded afterward went way beyond and raised the bar even higher.

You're just not a progressive rock guy. You like your four-on-the-floor beats, a serviceable riff, a charismatic and/or attitudinal lead singer. There are countless bands that fit the bill. You probably prefer your rock without keyboards, too (perish the thought!).

"Boring music"? The enduring fan base of either band chooses to politely disagree.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Not so THE WHO. They were definitely hit and miss over the years --- and more miss after Moon passed --- but they still managed to put out a lot of great songs over 3 decades and 2 of the best rock albums ever made.

The Who made some great music in their time, but they've been riding their own coattails since 1982. Compare that to Yes, Rush and many other legacy bands who consistently record new music and cover new terrain.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I've seen various bands cover Who songs over the years, and every time it is painfully clear: There was only one John Entwistle.

The same can be said for Chris Squire and Jaco Pastorius, both phenomenal bassists with radically different approaches who pushed the envelope even further with respect to electric bass innovation.

[AFtrEFkt]

Forgot something:

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

That's been my point all along: They're going to name more DC heroines than Marvel, and those are going to be Wonder Woman, Supergirl, Batgirl (and Catwoman and Harley Quinn). Out of Marvel, they'll immediately name Black Widow (thanks to the Avengers and Cap movies), and then they're going to stutter when they name more. They may squeeze out "Storm," but they'll likely forget (or be unable to name) Scarlet Witch ("The 'witch' from the 'twins', right") Rogue, Jean Grey ("Yeah, what's her name, Cyclops' girlfriend?"), and the rest.

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

I enjoyed John Byrne's run on FF. There were a few years there, in the early '80s, when it was a legitimately interesting title.

The FF in the ’60s and ‘70s was also loads of fun. Dated by today’s standards? Sure. But superior to anything DC was doing at the time.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

And she's Frank Miller's creation. Keep that in mind. She's one of Marvel's best characters of either sex.

Frank Miller was one of the all-time great writers of the 1980s. I haven’t been too impressed with anything he’s done since (SIN CITY and 300 were all style; no substance), but let’s give the guy is due. I love Elektra too in the hands of the right writer. But she’s like any other character … no better or worse than the writer of the moment.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

Except she wasn't a super-"villain" so much as an unpredictable, uncontrollable entity that had to be snuffed in order to secure the future of anyone vulnerable to it.

I’m not going to quibble over the semantic interpretation of “villain.” I’ll just say, “Interesting antagonist” and leave it at that.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

And it's very much a riff on Harlan Ellison's classic Star Trek episode "The City on the Edge of Forever" (his original, unfilmed script where Kirk, not McCoy, actually tries to save Edith). It wasn't original, but it was well done.

I will never accuse Marvel of being original. Good? Yes. Great? Yes. Original? No. The last storyteller to tell an original story was probably leaning over the fire in a cave, gnawing on a mammoth bone.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

The problem was that after that, Uncanny X-Men began a slow, gradual downslide that, IMO, it never recovered from, though I continued to read it.

I do not disagree.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

But hey, does Dagger not have a REALLY form-fitting outfit?

She does. It is absurd. But so are most super hero costumes. It’s the silliest staple of the genre. Super hero costumes were obviously inspired by circus acts. I had hoped the genre would outgrow it by now, but it hasn't happened yet.

But again … hardly unique to Marvel. DC’s costumes are just as silly, if not moreso.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

No, you got a Woodrow while you were typing that. I betcha!

You would lose that bet. High heels and bondage are not my thing. Ick.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

You talk like somebody who never heard any Rush after 2112

I grew up listening to Rush, thanks to my older brothers, cousins, and their friends. Boring then. Boring now. I don’t doubt that all of them were EXTREMELY talented musicians. Which makes it all the more dismaying how their musicwas so uninteresting.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

Yes after Fragile. Admittedly, those are fine albums but the music they recorded afterward went way beyond and raised the bar even higher.

I admit I haven’t listened to all of Yes’s discography, simply because what I have heard did not grab me in the slightest. I’m not tempted to drive my car into a tree when they come on the radio, but I do change the channel.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

You're just not a progressive rock guy.

Guilty as charged. I don’t like polka or beets either.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

You probably prefer your rock without keyboards, too (perish the thought!).

The keyboard is like any other instrument … only as powerful as the hands and brain that wields it. “Who’s Next” uses the keyboard to great effect. And in my bolder moments I’ll admit I love Elton John’s ‘70s output. But in the ‘80s too many bad bands used the keyboard as a crutch.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

"Boring music"? The enduring fan base of either band chooses to politely disagree.

The Lawrence Welk show also has an enduring fan base. As does lutefisk. Both gag me.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

The Who made some great music in their time, but they've been riding their own coattails since 1982.

Yup. The heart went out of the band when Keith Moon died.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

Compare that to Yes, Rush and many other legacy bands who consistently record new music and cover new terrain.

New terrain isn’t always good terrain. Jellybean burritos would be a new cuisine. But not a good one. Rush has always bored and/or irritated me, and I’ve never heard a Yes song I would care to hear twice.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

The same can be said for Chris Squire and Jaco Pastorius, both phenomenal bassists with radically different approaches who pushed the envelope even further with respect to electric bass innovation.

I don’t deny Squire was immensely talented. I just didn’t care for his music.

Jaco was a genius. A disturbed genius, yes, but he was hardly the first. However, most jazz bassists can play rings around most rock bassists, and Jaco could play rings around them all.

P.S. And yes, I love Harley Quinn. Probably my all-time favorite comic book villain. As long as we are talking about the Timm/Dini version. The new slutty goth version I despise.

[AFtrEFkt]

Originally Posted by Mark S.

The FF in the ’60s and ‘70s was also loads of fun. Dated by today’s standards? Sure. But superior to anything DC was doing at the time.

Except Batman and Swamp Thing (by Wein/Wrightson). At the very least.

Originally Posted by Mark S.

Frank Miller was one of the all-time great writers of the 1980s. I haven’t been too impressed with anything he’s done since (SIN CITY and 300 were all style; no substance), but let’s give the guy is due. I love Elektra too in the hands of the right writer. But she’s like any other character … no better or worse than the writer of the moment.

You all probably noticed I carry a rather large torch for Frank, and have done so since the early '80s when Daredevil was my single favorite comic on the market. The best thing he ever did isn't actually The Dark Knight Returns, but, for me, Ronin. That was a refreshingly daring book (and no doubt an expensive undertaking for the time) for DC to release. It's just beautiful, and as far as Frank's artwork goes, it represents the utter zenith of his visionary visual style.

Originally Posted by Mark S.

I’m not going to quibble over the semantic interpretation of “villain.” I’ll just say, “Interesting antagonist” and leave it at that.

Copy that.

On to music...

Originally Posted by Mark S.

I grew up listening to Rush, thanks to my older brothers, cousins, and their friends. Boring then. Boring now. I don’t doubt that all of them were EXTREMELY talented musicians. Which makes it all the more dismaying how their musicwas so uninteresting.

Really, really weird to hear this. Usually the only types I encounter who don't like Rush either a) listen to rap/hip-hop, or b) are devotees of nuMetal (Korn, Limp Bisquick, junk like that) or grunge. But even then, a lot of them still like Rush!

I mean, how does one hear "Limelight" or "Subdivisions" and go "that's boring/uninteresting"? But TEHO, I know.

Originally Posted by Mark S.

The keyboard is like any other instrument … only as powerful as the hands and brain that wields it. “Who’s Next” uses the keyboard to great effect. And in my bolder moments I’ll admit I love Elton John’s ‘70s output.

Well, who doesn't love piano? The keyboards were accompaniment in The Who's songs. I listen to a lot of bands where keyboards have a central role: ELP, Yes, Goblin, Tangerine Dream, Renaissance, Genesis, Saga, etc.

Originally Posted by Mark S.

But in the ‘80s too many bad bands used the keyboard as a crutch.

You can think technological advances in synthesizers (MIDI, polyphony, affordability, etc.) for that, but that is just too wide a topic to touch here. I've been into synths since the '80s.

Originally Posted by Mark S.

The Lawrence Welk show also has an enduring fan base.

So does Kenny G, but that's more of a "units sold" versus "dedicated listeners" dynamic at work.

Originally Posted by Mark S.

Yup. The heart went out of the band when Keith Moon died.

I wouldn't cite his death as the reason.

Originally Posted by Mark S.

New terrain isn’t always good terrain. Jellybean burritos would be a new cuisine. But not a good one. Rush has always bored and/or irritated me, and I’ve never heard a Yes song I would care to hear twice.

New terrain like this: Rush begins as a hard rock band. They discard their initial approach as Zeppelin wannabes. They experiment with time signatures. They streamline their sound and merge engaging melodies with electronic textures without sacrificing the aggressive basslines and drumming or Geddy's searing vocal styles. They begin to explore the concept of space within a song so that things aren't so busy. And on and on it goes, while at the same time simply being of the best effing rock bands ever. That doesn't mean they don't have a couple albums where things sound a little uninspired here and there. But when they roared back after an unintended hiatus (due to tragedy in Neil Peart's personal life) in 2002 with Vapor Trails, they've been operating at full speed ever since, making music on par with their heyday (probably better). You can't say the same for a lot of the legacy bands. While I like a few of their albums, Pink Floyd sounds pretty much the same to me across the decades (they're another seriously overrated band).

Originally Posted by Mark S.

Jaco was a genius. A disturbed genius, yes, but he was hardly the first. However, most jazz bassists can play rings around most rock bassists, and Jaco could play rings around them all.

Check out Michael Manring for the next evolutionary step in Jaco-centric bass playing. The guy's a wizard and a disciple of Pastorius.

[mkpunk]

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

That's been my point all along: They're going to name more DC heroines than Marvel, and those are going to be Wonder Woman, Supergirl, Batgirl (and Catwoman). Out of Marvel, they'll immediately name Black Widow (thanks to the Avengers and Cap movies), and then they're going to stutter when they name more. They may squeeze out "Storm," but they'll likely forget (or be unable to name) Scarlet Witch ("The 'witch' from the 'twins', right") Rogue, Jean Grey ("Yeah, what's her name, Cyclops' girlfriend?"), and the rest.

I agree that you'd get Wonder Woman and then Supergirl and Batgirl. I do doubt they would say Catwoman without it being a "Storm?" situation as many wouldn't realize she is an anti-hero outside of the movies. However my point is that Supergirl and Batgirl are characters based off of male counterparts. As I mentioned Marvel only really has the Spiders (and Spider-Woman is a loose Spidey clone who has different powers), She-Hulk and Captain Marvel, we really don't see female "clones" of male Marvel heroes.

Yeah, I know. Typin' too fast.

Fair enough, I do too.

I wasn't sure if your remark was meant to be a light-hearted jab. Yes, he makes some f'ing great films, doesn't he?

No, I do like his inspired by Batman movies. The Dark Knight Rises is one of my favorite comic book movies period.

One 150-minute film is enough, IMO.

You know you'd be estatic for two 100-110 minute films. I may think it is too much for a start, but it would suit the story better. This movie would be best suited being two separate films IMO.

My only remembrance was that he came out in '92 (which I erringly referred to as '94).

There were allusions of him being gay such as him not being into m

Spider-Woman's always had a skintight suit. Skintight material does not hinder motion. It's a boon to the more acrobatic and melee-centric characters. Nobody bothered to notice Spider-Woman's suit until Milo Manara (an Italian artist who does some fantastic work, and whose stories were serialized in Metal Hurlant and Heavy Metal in the '80s, where I read them) rendered her in a pose akin to a porn actress waiting to be serviced by her male co-star.

Oh I agree. The one Milo Manara cover really did get the ball rolling. That is why I brought it up.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

Just because she's in a skirt does not mean she looks like a stripper in the movie.

No she's actually in briefs/hipsters with a Roman battle armor flap over the crotch, at least in Batman V. Superman...

Psylocke (Olivia Munn) looks more like one than Wonder Gal.

At least this Psylocke is true to Psylocke. In X-Men: The Last Stand Arclight was credited to as Psylocke... In X-Men: Apocalypse she kinda looks like Demi Lovato in the "Cool For the Summer" video which isn't a bad thing...

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

Except Batman and Swamp Thing (by Wein/Wrightson). At the very least.

Point conceded. I have tried and tried to get in to Swamp Thing and just can’t do it. But I would not argue with anyone who does. I love Denny O’Neil, and ‘70s Batman was indeed classic. If anyone claimed Denny O'Neil saved Batman from an obscure death, they would get no argument from me. Had it not been for Denny’s Batman in the ‘70s, we never would have had Miller’s Batman in the ‘80s.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

You all probably noticed I carry a rather large torch for Frank, and have done so since the early '80s when Daredevil was my single favorite comic on the market. The best thing he ever did isn't actually The Dark Knight Returns, but, for me, Ronin. That was a refreshingly daring book (and no doubt an expensive undertaking for the time) for DC to release. It's just beautiful, and as far as Frank's artwork goes, it represents the utter zenith of his visionary visual style.

I love RONIN. Beautiful indeed. And I actually prefer Batman: Year One over The Dark Knight Returns. It perhaps wasn’t as original or groundbreaking, but it was a FAAAAAAR better story. And honestly, some of TDKR’s vision was a little weird. Batman on a horse and using machine guns? That’s not my Batman. That's just ... weird. Maybe not as weird as a girl Robin on roller skates, but weird nonetheless.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

Really, really weird to hear this. Usually the only types I encounter who don't like Rush either a) listen to rap/hip-hop, or b) are devotees of nuMetal (Korn, Limp Bisquick, junk like that) or grunge. But even then, a lot of them still like Rush!

I loathe NuMetal. Hip-hop and grunge is hit and miss. Some of it I have liked. A lot I don’t. But I wouldn’t call myself a fan of either.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

Well, who doesn't love piano? The keyboards were accompaniment in The Who's songs. I listen to a lot of bands where keyboards have a central role: ELP, Yes, Goblin, Tangerine Dream, Renaissance, Genesis, Saga, etc.

Never cared for ELP. Never listened to Goblin or Renaissance. Never even heard of Goblin. Tangerine Dream I have to be in the mood for, and the mood doesn’t often strike. Genesis’s ‘70s stuff is fantastic. Their ‘80s stuff can sometimes be fun. Saga … meh. It’s vanilla. Not offensive, but I never crave it.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

I wouldn't cite his death as the reason.

Nor would I. But it happened around the same time.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

Pink Floyd sounds pretty much the same to me across the decades (they're another seriously overrated band).

Pink Floyd is the single most over-rated band of all time. And that list includes the Beatles. Neither were bad. But neither were the penultimate greats many would have us believe.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

Check out Michael Manring for the next evolutionary step in Jaco-centric bass playing. The guy's a wizard and a disciple of Pastorius.

I will do so. Thanks for the recommendation!

[AFtrEFkt]

Originally Posted by Mark S.

Had it not been for Denny’s Batman in the ‘70s, we never would have had Miller’s Batman in the ‘80s.

Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder owe a debt to him, too.

I also can't believe I forgot to mention Vigilante. Did you read that? Started out being written by Wolfman, then Kupperberg. Another of DC's finest '80s titles. First appearance was in New Teen Titans Annual #1 by Wolfman/Pérez.

Originally Posted by Mark S.

I love RONIN. Beautiful indeed. And I actually prefer Batman: Year One over The Dark Knight Returns.

Stop the presses! We agree on both! Holy smoke!

I like TDKR because it's a trip, but Batman: Year One was just awesome. Mazzucchelli's Toth-like art's so badass. I couldn't get enough of it.

Originally Posted by Mark S.

I loathe NuMetal. Hip-hop and grunge is hit and miss. Some of it I have liked. A lot I don’t. But I wouldn’t call myself a fan of either.

The only "grunge" band I like isn't really a grunge band: Soundgarden. They're a hard rock band from Seattle, so they got the label by default. No goatman vocals.

Death metal sucks, too. Cookie monster vocals are like a bad joke that you don't ever want to hear again.

Originally Posted by Mark S.

Never cared for ELP.

What turned you off? Probably no lead guitarist, I fathom.

Originally Posted by Mark S.

Never listened to Goblin or Renaissance. Never even heard of Goblin.

Actually, you have. Goblin is an Italian prog rock band who supplied the film scores for a number of Dario Argento's films, namely Profondo Rosso (Deep Red), Suspiria, Tenebre, La Chiesa (The Church), Phenomena (aka Creepers), Non Ho Sonno. But their famous score might be the one they did for George A. Romero's Dawn of the Dead (which is one of my favorite albums ever).

Keith Emerson (the "E" in ELP) composed the music for Argento's Inferno.

Originally Posted by Mark S.

Tangerine Dream I have to be in the mood for, and the mood doesn’t often strike.

We're going to need to work on this.

Originally Posted by Mark S.

Genesis’s ‘70s stuff is fantastic.

But I'm more a fan of post-Gabriel '70s Genesis, if you can dig it.

Originally Posted by Mark S.

Their ‘80s stuff can sometimes be fun.

The first three '80s albums are great. I really like Genesis (1983).

Originally Posted by Mark S.

Saga … meh. It’s vanilla. Not offensive, but I never crave it.

Here's a side of Saga you probably aren't familiar with:

"Hangman"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnsdFl5O5b4

Originally Posted by Mark S.

Pink Floyd is the single most over-rated band of all time.

Definitely, though I think Gilmour's pretty great. However, I'd sooner reach for his very first solo album from the '70s over any Floyd.

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder owe a debt to him, too.

I have been enjoying Scott Snyder's work immensely, both his Batman stuff and independent titles.

Grant Morrison is the Pink Floyd of comics. Extremely over rated. I actually hated his Batman stuff so badly that I stopped reading the book --- until Snyder came on board.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

I like TDKR because it's a trip, but Batman: Year One was just awesome. Mazzucchelli's Toth-like art's so badass. I couldn't get enough of it.

Yup. totally agreed.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

The only "grunge" band I like isn't really a grunge band: Soundgarden. They're a hard rock band from Seattle, so they got the label by default. No goatman vocals.

Yup. I'm familiar. They're okay. I don't dislike them at all, but they're never going to make my list of favorite bands.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

Death metal sucks, too. Cookie monster vocals are like a bad joke that you don't ever want to hear again.

I would rather listen to Cookie Monster than death metal.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

What turned you off? Probably no lead guitarist, I fathom.

ELP's music is too busy, over produced, and ... white. No soul at all. Listening to ELP is like playing tennis in a sweater at the country club.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

Definitely, though I think Gilmour's pretty great. However, I'd sooner reach for his very first solo album from the '70s over any Floyd.

Gilmour is a great guitarist. But aside from a couple of songs, I could just never get in to Pink Floyd. Too self-aware and pretentious. Every time I hear someone listening to Pink Floyd, I get afraid that their chauffeur is going to show up and demand I move my car because it is blocking the Bentley.

[AFtrEFkt]

Originally Posted by Mark S.

Grant Morrison is the Pink Floyd of comics. Extremely over rated. I actually hated his Batman stuff so badly that I stopped reading the book --- until Snyder came on board.

Morrison's two Batman: Earth One graphic novels are very good (and Gary Frank's art is incredible). I'd check those out even if you didn't like Morrison as the writer of the ongoing (I prefer Snyder, though, by far).

Morrison's high water mark, for me, is actually We3. That was stellar. Did you read it?

Originally Posted by Mark S.

ELP's music is too busy, over produced, and ... white. No soul at all. Listening to ELP is like playing tennis in a sweater at the country club.

I wouldn't say they're soulless. Emerson's keyboard talent is up there with a lot of the jazz guys. A lot of the Brit bands have that feel, too. It's a European prog thing. I mean, you can't get "whiter" than ELP, early Genesis, and Renaissance.

They didn't entirely own the market on prog, though. Todd Rundgren's early Utopia albums are amazing. And everything Kansas recorded up until Steve Walsh vacated his post as their lead singer. And as far as I'm concerned, Santana was a progressive band up through the mid-'70s. Essential stuff!

Originally Posted by Mark S.

Gilmour is a great guitarist. But aside from a couple of songs, I could just never get in to Pink Floyd. Too self-aware and pretentious. Every time I hear someone listening to Pink Floyd, I get afraid that their chauffeur is going to show up and demand I move my car because it is blocking the Bentley.

LOL!

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

Morrison's two Batman: Earth One graphic novels are very good (and Gary Frank's art is incredible). I'd check those out even if you didn't like Morrison as the writer of the ongoing (I prefer Snyder, though, by far).

Morrison's high water mark, for me, is actually We3. That was stellar. Did you read it?

Nope. I read Animal Man, which I just found weird and uninteresting. I read The Authority, which I found so unbelievably badly written that I was a little shocked it had actually been published. I read New X-Men, which was somewhat of a miracle. I didn't think it was possible to make X-Men worse than it was at the time, but Morrison managed to do it. Absolute dreck. I've read some of his other Marvel work over the years. Hated all of it. Then he came to Batman, and I think I lasted three or four issues before I gave up in disgust.

But yes, I love Gary Frank's art. Although I will say I think the coloring robs it of a lot of its power. His art is actually much more striking in black and white.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

I wouldn't say they're soulless. Emerson's keyboard talent is up there with a lot of the jazz guys.

White jazz.

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

A lot of the Brit bands have that feel, too. It's a European prog thing.

Yep. And as I have already confessed, I dislike prog rock. Either mildly or intensely, but I dislike it. Genesis being one of the notable exceptions.