X-Men: Apocalypse (filming, script, versus, action)

[mkpunk]

Originally Posted by The Ryu

Imagine;

X-Men 1 - Cyclops, Beast, Iceman, Colossus, Jean, Archangel, Storm, Wolverine, Prof X vs Magneto, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Mystique, Rogue, Sabretooth, Blob, Toad, and Gambit. End of this movie, Rogue and Gambit join the X-men.

X-Men 2 - Cyclops, Beast, Iceman, Colossus, Jean, Archangel, Storm, Wolverine, Rogue, Gambit, and Prof X Vs The Sentinels and Juggernaut. Side Story - Magneto, Quicksilver, Mystique and Scarlet Witch discover the tomb of Apocalypse and awaken him. They become the 4 horsemen of Apocalypse.

Avengers 1 - Transpires

X-Men 3 - Cyclops, Beast, Iceman, Colossus, Jean, Archangel, Storm, Wolverine, Rogue, Gambit + Avengers vs Apocalypse and his 4 Horsemen. Side Story - Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver join the Avengers but Scarlet Witch's powers are starting to become unstable......

Avengers 2 - Transpires

X-Men 4 - X-men vs Mr. Sinister + Marauders. Mr. Sinister experiments on Jean Grey which results in her accessing the Phoenix side. End of the movie. D'Ken Neramani senses Jean's powers and sets to Earth to use her to access M'Kraan Crystal.

X-Men 5 - X-men + Magneto + Avengers vs D'Ken Neramani and the Phoenix. End of movie: The Phoenix puts the unstability of Scarlet Witch

X-Men 6 - X- Men + Avengers vs Magneto, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch (House of M).

oh tiddays!!!!!

Too many characters. Even first class had its issues with too many and some being McGuffin'd (Darwin anyone) and others not getting character development (Angel Salvador, Havok, Banshee, Azaeal and Riptide, even Emma Frost) Having all these characters in AND the Avengers is a bit too much. I think the only story that X-Men didn't tackle that I'd like to see that they can (as much as I'd love to see House of M, the rights issues and the fact they never used Scarlet Witch prevent that) is The Phoenix and Dark Phoenix stories with the obvious Shiar ties.

[mkpunk]

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

That movie's proof a retcon of the events of the trilogy was being fast-tracked.

It's also due to four different filmmakers being a part of the series and two movies being considered as after-birth by critics and fans alike. It happens in comics all the time too.

Only comics readers realize this.

And comic readers mainly romanticize the true First Class because of the First Class comic released in the mid 2000's that influenced the movie X-Men: First Class being made in the first place as well as bringing in the All New X-Men from the past. Obvious changes happened though as Magneto was never a true X-Men until after Cyclops became a Stokley Carmichael like figure siding with Magneto's Malcolm X and forming his own X-Men team

If they wanted to use the "popular" X-Men, Colossus and Nightcrawler should have been full members in the first film. But hold that thought:

Part of it was the limitations on visual effects and budget. Beast was originally in X-Men with concept art but was dropped due to budget issues.

For all the heat Nolan took about not wanting Batman to be a superhero, Singer's the guilty one. The team is pared down to four characters in generic, dark primary-colored uniforms. Not even Wolverine has his signature headgear. Cyclops is vocally cited as the team leader, but he doesn't act that much like one. Storm barely uses her powers — and what the hell's up with that spinning? By the end of the movie, if it isn't obvious The Wolverine Show is a thing, then only a face slap with a cold wet fish will alert you.

Singer's take is no real different than a different writer and artist picking up a series and changing tones and looks. I've seen The All New Spider-Man and he looks more cartoony than comic after the Superior Spider-Man run ended. Then you have the different timelines and that. Wolverine's headgear is a bit Batmanesque which after the Schumaker films left a bad taste in your mouth, do you really want to look like that? IMO the costumes worked and is proof that costumes can be designed just as good specifically for movies than historical looks in the comics.

I agree on Cyclops and Storm (especially in X-Men.) By the way they diserviced Cyclops, I'm glad he died in The Last Stand (though fan theories disagree with this.) Storm became a better character as the budgets increased and allowed her powers to be used. I'll get to the Wolverine show in a bit.

In an ensemble film like the forthcoming Suicide Squad, several characters will no doubt receive more emphasis and face time than the rest: Deadshot, Harley Quinn, and Enchantress along with The Joker and Amanda Waller. Not one, several. And there are more than four Squad members. With an X-quartet (fewer characters to write for), it shouldn't have been Logan's Heroes.

It wasn't, Xavier and Magneto were established and dug into as was Rogue. There wasn't just Logan as the "only character." Perhaps Suicide Squad will be the same thing. I agree, the majority of the saga is Logan's stories but most individual movies are not The Wolverine Show except if Wolverine was the main star or Days of Future Past (but that still had great character development for others.)

They should have saved him for the next movie. They could have built a very cool storyline around Logan/Weapon X/Wolverine, but obviously the numbskulls at Fox said "We have to have Magneto AND Wolverine in this movie, and both are going to stand out from the rest, even Professor X." And what they did to Rogue was a flippin' joke.

They had no rights to Carol Danvers so guess what, she either not have those powers or create a mutant exclusive to the movie with Danvers' abilities. The chose the former as the latter could have been a copywrite infringement.

The Guardians were a bunch of total unknowns outside of comics culture. It was much easier to focus it on the "handsome white boy lead" (though to me, he's always going to be Andy Dwyer of Parks and Recreation). The movie was an experiment: Disney wanted to see if they could tap Star Wars fever a little early, and Guardians is a pure space opera piece. None of those characters — including Star-Lord, who was a "serious" character in the 1970s — were in GotG when they first appeared. Do they remotely resemble the guys on this cover, haha? They used the NuGuardians.

The 1970's Guardians were out of the lime light for some 20 years. The 2008 team (the majority of the team are the ones in the movie) were around as bit characters including being a part of the Infinity Gauntlet and Infinity War storylines or in the case of Groot and Rocket, around partially since the 1960'. FYI, Guardians was a proposed movie back in 2010 (right after Disney bought Marvel because I recall this from Disney news podcasts) and announced at Comic Con 2012 while Star Wars and LucasFilm's purchase was in September 2012, I doubt it was a "Star Wars fever" picture. The timelines are a bit misleading to that if you drill-down. Are their similarities, sure but that's like comparing DC and Marvel properties.

[LoveBeingAMommy]

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I tried it in May I went Origins: Wolverine, X-Men, X2, The Last Stand, The Wolverine, First Class, Days of Future Past. Maybe you could do First Class before Origins, but there's no true "Machete Order" for the X-Men movies like there is Star Wars and (at least to me) The Marvel Cinematic Universe (where I throw out Hulk and show Captain America first)

Thanks

[AFtrEFkt]

Originally Posted by mkpunk

It's also due to four different filmmakers being a part of the series and two movies being considered as after-birth by critics and fans alike. It happens in comics all the time too.

Four? Are you including the Wolverine movies, too? Singer, Ratner, Hood, Vaughn, Mangold, Miller. That's six, if you include Deadpool. Plus, Jeff Wadlow is rumored to direct X-Force.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

And comic readers mainly romanticize the true First Class because of the First Class comic released in the mid 2000's that influenced the movie X-Men: First Class being made in the first place as well as bringing in the All New X-Men from the past. Obvious changes happened though as Magneto was never a true X-Men until after Cyclops became a Stokley Carmichael like figure siding with Magneto's Malcolm X and forming his own X-Men team

I initially stopped reading all the various X-books in the '90s because things got really lame. If there was an actual First Class comic around ten years back that spawned the movie, then I'm completely unaware of it. My bad.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Part of it was the limitations on visual effects and budget. Beast was originally in X-Men with concept art but was dropped due to budget issues.

They had no really big names to chew up the budget, but then, Fox didn't exactly take a huge gamble. Beast was mainly a fur suit in X3 except for the one extended shot where he performs a horizontal somersault.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Singer's take is no real different than a different writer and artist picking up a series and changing tones and looks.

If a creative team pitched such a drab do-over, their editor would tell them to GTFO out of their office. Even the Marvel NOW! books had odd (and unappealing) variations on given themes, like the wacko FF book with "Ms. Thing" (basically a Thing suit with a chick's head planted on top).

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I've seen The All New Spider-Man and he looks more cartoony than comic after the Superior Spider-Man run ended.

Manga's influence first began being felt in Marvel and DC years ago. I love certain manga like Lone Wolf and Cub, and Kamui, but some of it is more cutesy, more cartoony, and that trend is current, too. Look at Babs' art for Batgirl. I guess it sells. It's just not my cuppa, and never has been.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Wolverine's headgear is a bit Batmanesque which after the Schumaker films left a bad taste in your mouth, do you really want to look like that? IMO the costumes worked and is proof that costumes can be designed just as good specifically for movies than historical looks in the comics.

Fox wanted nobody's faced covered, and they still don't. I've never regarded Wolverine's headgear as being similar to Batman's. The eyeholes are white, but that's about it. Either the yellow/black or brown versions would be great to see (on his head, not in a valise).

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I agree on Cyclops and Storm (especially in X-Men.) By the way they diserviced Cyclops, I'm glad he died in The Last Stand (though fan theories disagree with this.) Storm became a better character as the budgets increased and allowed her powers to be used. I'll get to the Wolverine show in a bit.

All they could do to Scott was kill him off at that point.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

It wasn't, Xavier and Magneto were established and dug into as was Rogue. There wasn't just Logan as the "only character." Perhaps Suicide Squad will be the same thing. I agree, the majority of the saga is Logan's stories but most individual movies are not The Wolverine Show except if Wolverine was the main star or Days of Future Past (but that still had great character development for others.)

That's the funny thing about DoFP, seeing Wolverine shoehorned into the central role, then sticking out and becoming more useless as the movie wore on. Fassbender and McAvoy (and even Lawrence and Hoult) were the ones who kept things interesting. Fox was kind enough to put a big spoiler in the trailer, too (Magneto levitating the Mk. I Sentinels), but it was great seeing Logan be completely owned by Erik. It still wasn't as good as First Class, and I don't think Apocalypse will be, either.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

They had no rights to Carol Danvers so guess what, she either not have those powers or create a mutant exclusive to the movie with Danvers' abilities. The chose the former as the latter could have been a copywrite infringement.

As in Ms. Marvel? I'm completely foggy as to what you're getting at, but I'm glad Fox doesn't have her. [EDIT: Danvers = Binary?]

Originally Posted by mkpunk

The 1970's Guardians were out of the lime light for some 20 years. The 2008 team (the majority of the team are the ones in the movie) were around as bit characters including being a part of the Infinity Gauntlet and Infinity War storylines or in the case of Groot and Rocket, around partially since the 1960'.

Groot was a giant tree monster who appeared in '62 or '63. Rocky Raccoon (his original name) appeared in '76 in a back-up story. Earlier the same year was the first appearance of Star-Lord in the same title, Marvel Preview. I dig the original Star-Lord stories. He was a proper SF character, not written like a clown. His old costume may look dated compared to the one you see now, but I prefer that one.

Gamora appeared a year earlier, in '75. She was created by Jim Starlin, the man responsible for Thanos (Jim admitted he's a rip-off of Darkseid). He also co-created Drax (he first appeared in Iron Man).

However, Jim Starlin has other creations that far exceed those, like his original SF concept Metamorphosis Odyssey, which first appeared in Epic Illustrated and introduced Vanth Dreadstar. That is, by far, Starlin's best work. The entire saga is huge, and continues from Epic Illustrated into an original magazine one-shot called The Price, followed by the Marvel Graphic Novel Dreadstar, and then continuing in the ongoing Dreadstar, first published by Marvel's Epic Comics imprint, and later, First Comics. If you've never read these...get on it!

Originally Posted by mkpunk

FYI, Guardians was a proposed movie back in 2010 (right after Disney bought Marvel because I recall this from Disney news podcasts) and announced at Comic Con 2012 while Star Wars and LucasFilm's purchase was in September 2012, I doubt it was a "Star Wars fever" picture. The timelines are a bit misleading to that if you drill-down. Are their similarities, sure but that's like comparing DC and Marvel properties.

GOTG scratches that same space opera itch. Every studio is looking to replicate the SW phenomenon. And if Disney-Marvel can have two rather than one, they'll definitely shoot for it.

[mkpunk]

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

Four? Are you including the Wolverine movies, too? Singer, Ratner, Hood, Vaughn, Mangold, Miller. That's six, if you include Deadpool. Plus, Jeff Wadlow is rumored to direct X-Force.

At the time Days of Future Past was drawn up, there was Mangold's The Wolverine which was not much of a contiunity head scratcher besides Xavier being alive (though there was the stupid reincarnated scene) and Deadpool was a scrapped idea.

I initially stopped reading all the various X-books in the '90s because things got really lame. If there was an actual First Class comic around ten years back that spawned the movie, then I'm completely unaware of it. My bad.

It did because Fox scrapped the planned Magneto Origins movie around 2008 and Fox wanted a way to breathe life into X-Men, X-Men: First Class came around, Fox executives caught wind and found their muse.

They had no really big names to chew up the budget, but then, Fox didn't exactly take a huge gamble. Beast was mainly a fur suit in X3 except for the one extended shot where he performs a horizontal somersault.

The gamble was an unproven comic book movie coming out after the failures of Batman & Robin and Steel. Blade was a modest budget compared to some what $70 million dollar X-Men film that needed to show various powers that to that point, we never saw done in movies.

If a creative team pitched such a drab do-over, their editor would tell them to GTFO out of their office. Even the Marvel NOW! books had odd (and unappealing) variations on given themes, like the wacko FF book with "Ms. Thing" (basically a Thing suit with a chick's head planted on top).

Ah, She-Thing, the brief Fantastic Four member to replace Ben Grimm as the thing when he returned to human form around the time of Days of Future Present

Manga's influence first began being felt in Marvel and DC years ago. I love certain manga like Lone Wolf and Cub, and Kamui, but some of it is more cutesy, more cartoony, and that trend is current, too. Look at Babs' art for Batgirl. I guess it sells. It's just not my cuppa, and never has been.

I actually like the very magna inspired Spider-Man loves Mary Jane series from 2005. Though it is kind of a Smallville but about Spider-Man through the eyes of Mary Jane. I just don't like the more recent look to Parker myself.

Fox wanted nobody's faced covered, and they still don't. I've never regarded Wolverine's headgear as being similar to Batman's. The eyeholes are white, but that's about it. Either the yellow/black or brown versions would be great to see (on his head, not in a valise).

I do, especially if it was to be the same color as Wolverine's uniform, black.

All they could do to Scott was kill him off at that point.

Which while I didn't like it, it made sense.

That's the funny thing about DoFP, seeing Wolverine shoehorned into the central role, then sticking out and becoming more useless as the movie wore on. Fassbender and McAvoy (and even Lawrence and Hoult) were the ones who kept things interesting. Fox was kind enough to put a big spoiler in the trailer, too (Magneto levitating the Mk. I Sentinels), but it was great seeing Logan be completely owned by Erik. It still wasn't as good as First Class, and I don't think Apocalypse will be, either.

Wolverine was used mainly because he was beloved and more importantly, he was around in that time period as an adult.

As in Ms. Marvel? I'm completely foggy as to what you're getting at, but I'm glad Fox doesn't have her. [EDIT: Danvers = Binary?]

Ms. Marvel was the reason Rogue flew and had super strength, Rogue touched for so long she gained Ms. Marvel's powers. This is why Rogue was limited, BUT I feel Singer did he most with the least in this case and focused on the human side of Rogue not being able to touch another human.

Groot was a giant tree monster who appeared in '62 or '63. Rocky Raccoon (his original name) appeared in '76 in a back-up story. Earlier the same year was the first appearance of Star-Lord in the same title, Marvel Preview. I dig the original Star-Lord stories. He was a proper SF character, not written like a clown. His old costume may look dated compared to the one you see now, but I prefer that one.

Gamora appeared a year earlier, in '75. She was created by Jim Starlin, the man responsible for Thanos (Jim admitted he's a rip-off of Darkseid). He also co-created Drax (he first appeared in Iron Man).

Who Darkseid was a New God which if I am not mistaken was a possible Marvel replacement to Thor before Jack Kirby left for DC. In a way, it was Marvel getting a character they were originally supposed to have. Plus show me a comic book character who was completely original and they are likely Gold and early Silver Aged characters (though not the DC rebooted Flash and Green Lanterns.)

GOTG scratches that same space opera itch. Every studio is looking to replicate the SW phenomenon. And if Disney-Marvel can have two rather than one, they'll definitely shoot for it.

Maybe they wanted something similar to it, perhaps it was more of Marvel trying to build up to Thanos in phase 3 (something that did indeed happen with giving the backstory of the infinity stones/gems and having Thanos in the film in The Emperor role from The Empire Strikes Back. That said, it was a much different tone than Star Wars despite in some ways a similar plot.

Now Fox doing a rumored Starjammers movie, that can be VERY Star Wars knock-off considering that Fox didn't like Disney buying Lucasfilm to release Star Wars movies under their own banner and trying to expand on the X-Men Universe.

[AFtrEFkt]

A second go at this. The site ate my previous attempt because I was to lazy to CTRL+C it before I clicked Submit.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

At the time Days of Future Past was drawn up, there was Mangold's The Wolverine which was not much of a contiunity head scratcher besides Xavier being alive (though there was the stupid reincarnated scene) and Deadpool was a scrapped idea.

I see. You're talking about then. Copy that.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

It did because Fox scrapped the planned Magneto Origins movie around 2008 and Fox wanted a way to breathe life into X-Men, X-Men: First Class came around, Fox executives caught wind and found their muse.

A way to reboot the franchise without really having to reboot it.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

The gamble was an unproven comic book movie coming out after the failures of Batman & Robin and Steel. Blade was a modest budget compared to some what $70 million dollar X-Men film that needed to show various powers that to that point, we never saw done in movies.

Blade was technically a hit. Fox intended to use all the properties they bought the film rights for at Marvel's bankruptcy-inspired fire sale.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Ah, She-Thing, the brief Fantastic Four member to replace Ben Grimm as the thing when he returned to human form around the time of Days of Future Present

Is She-Thing another character? The one in the FF comic published by Marvel's NOW! imprint is called Ms. Thing.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I actually like the very magna inspired Spider-Man loves Mary Jane series from 2005. Though it is kind of a Smallville but about Spider-Man through the eyes of Mary Jane. I just don't like the more recent look to Parker myself.

Not familiar with it.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I do, especially if it was to be the same color as Wolverine's uniform, black.

That would be terrible. It needs to be brown or a black-yellow duotone. I'm glad they moved away from making black the default primary tone on so many characters. Even Batman's BvS suit is grey-and-black, as it should be.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Wolverine was used mainly because he was beloved and more importantly, he was around in that time period as an adult.

He's their Downey. With as many characters as DoFP had, they hoped it would enjoy Avengers-level success.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Ms. Marvel was the reason Rogue flew and had super strength, Rogue touched for so long she gained Ms. Marvel's powers. This is why Rogue was limited, BUT I feel Singer did he most with the least in this case and focused on the human side of Rogue not being able to touch another human.

Are you referring to the comic only, in this instance?

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Who Darkseid was a New God which if I am not mistaken was a possible Marvel replacement to Thor before Jack Kirby left for DC. In a way, it was Marvel getting a character they were originally supposed to have.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Darkseid was never intended for Marvel. The Fourth World and the New Gods are DC's, while Marvel has the Eternals. (Maybe you're thinking of them?) Kirby created Darkseid as the principal antagonist for his 4thW storyverse; Darkseid first appeared in 1970. Thanos appeared in 1973. I bring up Starlin's self-admission because it's common knowledge, not a what-if, not speculation. In Starlin's own words:

Kirby had done the New Gods, which I thought was terrific. He was over at DC at the time. I came up with some things that were inspired by that. You'd think that Thanos was inspired by Darkseid, but that was not the case when I showed up. In my first Thanos drawings, if he looked like anybody, it was Metron. I had all these different gods and things I wanted to do, which became Thanos and the Titans. Roy took one look at the guy in the Metron-like chair and said: "Beef him up! If you're going to steal one of the New Gods, at least rip off Darkseid, the really good one!"[SIZE=2][3][/SIZE]

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Plus show me a comic book character who was completely original and they are likely Gold and early Silver Aged characters (though not the DC rebooted Flash and Green Lanterns.)

They would likely be mostly DC characters. However, there have been original characters created in every decade since.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Maybe they wanted something similar to it, perhaps it was more of Marvel trying to build up to Thanos in phase 3 (something that did indeed happen with giving the backstory of the infinity stones/gems and having Thanos in the film in The Emperor role from The Empire Strikes Back. That said, it was a much different tone than Star Wars despite in some ways a similar plot.

The Infinity War. That's a helluva cosmic event, one I'm not sure they should have even gotten to this quickly. I still think Civil War should've cultivated as an Avengers film event and not a Captain America sequel.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Now Fox doing a rumored Starjammers movie, that can be VERY Star Wars knock-off considering that Fox didn't like Disney buying Lucasfilm to release Star Wars movies under their own banner and trying to expand on the X-Men Universe.

There will be many sci-fi "space opera" ventures in years to come. ROM: Spaceknight and the Micronauts movies will be part of a shared universe with Transformers and G.I. Joe.

[mkpunk]

Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt

A way to reboot the franchise without really having to reboot it.

And then because of that, they actually did have to reboot it with Days of Future Past due to the issues of Ratner's and Hood's movies. Those movies had the most timeline plotholes to the X-Men series along with being at best mediocre.

Blade was technically a hit. Fox intended to use all the properties they bought the film rights for at Marvel's bankruptcy-inspired fire sale.

I'm not degrading Blade (though I found it meh personally,) it just was a huge success as it was a mid-range movie (budget wise) It clocked in with a 131m box office (71m in US alone) on a 40m budget (with a 17m opening weekend) so it wasn't a shattering success (mind you Star Wars: The Force Awakens made back its 200m budget in a single weekend on US box office alone.) X-Men made 54m in their opening weekend on their 70m budget with a 157m US total box office and a 293m worldwide box office.

Is She-Thing another character? The one in the FF comic published by Marvel's NOW! imprint is called Ms. Thing.

I never heard of Ms. Thing but She-Thing is indeed her own character and was created first. She was a female with a similar look to The Thing and replaced him in the Fantastic Four in 1990, around the time of Days of Future Present.

Not familiar with it.

Basically it was a mid-2000's Marvel cash-in on the Spider-Man movies by Sam Reimi directed to the female audience who now was into Spider-Man thank to the movies. It was much more of a girlie design and oriented with limited fight scenes and more teen angst and drama than anything else than anything.

That would be terrible. It needs to be brown or a black-yellow duotone. I'm glad they moved away from making black the default primary tone on so many characters. Even Batman's BvS suit is grey-and-black, as it should be.

Well I thought the brown suit looked stupid all the time. However in Team X (where most of the X-Men Origins Wolverine had some ties to,) Wolverine had a black unmasked suit with Gold shoulder pads.

He's their Downey. With as many characters as DoFP had, they hoped it would enjoy Avengers-level success.

It wasn't the fun movie Avengers was and the pace initially threw me for a loop, causing me to not like it on first viewing. Now, I love it, barely above First Class. Apocalypse, may just be my first five-star X-Men movie to be quite honest.

Are you referring to the comic only, in this instance?

Ms. Marvel were where Rogue got her strength and flight abilites from both in the comics and the 1990's Fox TV show, so yes. Obviously Fox never had the rights so they couldn't make Rogue tap into her powers. Plus unless you had a Ms. Marvel like mutant ready to go, it would have been some created mutant or just dropped. They went with the latter and it honestly worked. Rogue's arc in Last Stand, was a better sub-plot in it if I do say so.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Darkseid was never intended for Marvel. The Fourth World and the New Gods are DC's, while Marvel has the Eternals. (Maybe you're thinking of them?) Kirby created Darkseid as the principal antagonist for his 4thW storyverse; Darkseid first appeared in 1970. Thanos appeared in 1973. I bring up Starlin's self-admission because it's common knowledge, not a what-if, not speculation. In Starlin's own words:

I would read this, then come back to me about The New Gods originally intended to be Marvel characters...

Spoiler

The article shows that even New Gods Issue #1 was virtually a re-hash of a backdoor intro intended to launch new characters after Kirby's version of Ragnarok as a storyline in Thor.

This means, had Kirby stayed at Marvel and the Thor characters worked, perhaps Darkseid would have been a Marvel character.

They would likely be mostly DC characters. However, there have been original characters created in every decade since.

Besides the whole "X-Men are a Doom Patrol rip-off" theory (which the Doom Patrol itself was a Fantastic Four rip-off,) I'd argue that X-Men were original characters, even to this day baring say Warpath (Thunderbird's brother with the same powers), the new Wolverine X-23 (a female clone of Logan) and multiple shape-shifters (Mystique, Morph/Changling, Copycat, etc.) This is because of the powers that were given to them and at that point, the only characters born with powers given to them were aliens (Superman) or decedents of Gods (Wonder Woman, Aquaman.) Doom Patrol's were given to them by various accidents.

The Infinity War. That's a helluva cosmic event, one I'm not sure they should have even gotten to this quickly. I still think Civil War should've cultivated as an Avengers film event and not a Captain America sequel.

Part of it is the whole issue with contracts. Marvel's contracts with the big actors were for three pictures each because at the time, this was common with most traditional franchises. This is why Robert Downey Jr. had a HUGE payoff when he signed on for Iron Man 3 and Age of Ultron. Now, Marvel can pretty much get anyone to sign on for the length they want. Then you also have the Chris Evans of the world who want to direct and take an extended break from Capt. Ideally, you are right but in practice, it wouldn't work out that way as you would truly need to introduce too many characters by that point.

There will be many sci-fi "space opera" ventures in years to come. ROM: Spaceknight and the Micronauts movies will be part of a shared universe with Transformers and G.I. Joe.

I don't know. It depends on how Star Trek Beyond does and also Rogue One. Remember, after Star Wars, Disney tried their own with Black Hole. Then you also had failed ones like John Carter too.

[AFtrEFkt]

Originally Posted by mkpunk

And then because of that, they actually did have to reboot it with Days of Future Past due to the issues of Ratner's and Hood's movies. Those movies had the most timeline plotholes to the X-Men series along with being at best mediocre.

That's what I meant: DoFP's retcon eliminates the need to produce a dedicated reboot. At the very end, Scott and Jean are both back.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I'm not degrading Blade (though I found it meh personally,) it just was a huge success as it was a mid-range movie (budget wise) It clocked in with a 131m box office (71m in US alone) on a 40m budget (with a 17m opening weekend) so it wasn't a shattering success (mind you Star Wars: The Force Awakens made back its 200m budget in a single weekend on US box office alone.) X-Men made 54m in their opening weekend on their 70m budget with a 157m US total box office and a 293m worldwide box office.

LOL. There is absolutely no need to reference something like The Force Awakens. Everyone knew its take would be monstrous, even if it made The Phantom Spinach look like The Godfather.

Hence, Blade was "technically" a hit. It didn't cost that much, and it did quite well.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I never heard of Ms. Thing but She-Thing is indeed her own character and was created first. She was a female with a similar look to The Thing and replaced him in the Fantastic Four in 1990, around the time of Days of Future Present.

She-Thing (Sharon Ventura) looks exactly like The Thing. This is Ms. Thing aka Darla Deering (first appearance: 2012). She's a human in a power suit. Stupid character, IMO.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Well I thought the brown suit looked stupid all the time. However in Team X (where most of the X-Men Origins Wolverine had some ties to,) Wolverine had a black unmasked suit with Gold shoulder pads.

Awful. Generic. He looks like a merc, not the Wolverine.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

It wasn't the fun movie Avengers was and the pace initially threw me for a loop, causing me to not like it on first viewing. Now, I love it, barely above First Class. Apocalypse, may just be my first five-star X-Men movie to be quite honest.

Apocalypse won't be better than First Class. None of them will, until somehow, some way, Singer leaves his post. Just MHO.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I would read this, then come back to me about The New Gods originally intended to be Marvel characters...

Spoiler

The article shows that even New Gods Issue #1 was virtually a re-hash of a backdoor intro intended to launch new characters after Kirby's version of Ragnarok as a storyline in Thor.

This means, had Kirby stayed at Marvel and the Thor characters worked, perhaps Darkseid would have been a Marvel character.

The story related in that article is a familiar one. It's like an author choosing who to sell his novel to, or a songwriter choosing who to sell his songs to. Where they landed is what matters now. Also, we don't know if he had already created Darkseid. He's not mentioned. Marv Wolfman "saw" some designs, but he's unable (or declined) to provide specifics. Also, Roy Thomas, who was not one to be in a position of ignorance at the time, went so far as to give Starlin a pointer about his knockoff character (which you can see you in the quote I pasted).

The thing that's important is that those characters were Kirby's, and he intended to allow the publisher — be it Marvel, then DC — to use them and that he be allowed a profit-sharing perk. He moved to DC, so they got them.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Besides the whole "X-Men are a Doom Patrol rip-off" theory (which the Doom Patrol itself was a Fantastic Four rip-off,)

The FF were inspired by the DC's Challengers of the Unknown. In one issue, one of the Challengers gets hit with cosmic radiation and temporarily exhibits some powers that later show up in the FF. The only difference was the Human Torch, who, like Captain America, was a very old character who was rebooted.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I'd argue that X-Men were original characters, even to this day baring say Warpath (Thunderbird's brother with the same powers), the new Wolverine X-23 (a female clone of Logan) and multiple shape-shifters (Mystique, Morph/Changling, Copycat, etc.) This is because of the powers that were given to them and at that point, the only characters born with powers given to them were aliens (Superman) or decedents of Gods (Wonder Woman, Aquaman.) Doom Patrol's were given to them by various accidents.

The X-Men appeared three months after the Doom Patrol. Both teams were led by a mentor in a wheelchair. That's not a coincidence. Check out this quote by creator-writer Arnold Drake:

...I’ve become more and more convinced that [Stan Lee] knowingly stole The X-Men from The Doom Patrol. Over the years I learned that an awful lot of writers and artists were working surreptitiously between [Marvel and DC]. Therefore from when I first brought the idea into [DC editor] Murray Boltinoff’s office, it would’ve been easy for someone to walk over and hear that [I was] working on a story about a bunch of reluctant superheroes who are led by a man in a wheelchair. So over the years I began to feel that Stan had more lead time than I realized. He may well have had four, five or even six months.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

Part of it is the whole issue with contracts. Marvel's contracts with the big actors were for three pictures each because at the time, this was common with most traditional franchises. This is why Robert Downey Jr. had a HUGE payoff when he signed on for Iron Man 3 and Age of Ultron. Now, Marvel can pretty much get anyone to sign on for the length they want. Then you also have the Chris Evans of the world who want to direct and take an extended break from Capt. Ideally, you are right but in practice, it wouldn't work out that way as you would truly need to introduce too many characters by that point.

Yeah, there's a bit of juggling. Evans did say recently that Marvel's got him for as long as they want him. He knows who butters his bread.

Originally Posted by mkpunk

I don't know. It depends on how Star Trek Beyond does and also Rogue One. Remember, after Star Wars, Disney tried their own with Black Hole. Then you also had failed ones like John Carter too.

How is Rogue One an "if"? It's a Star Wars movie. Star Trek Beyond can't singlehandedly slam the door shut on, well, anything. The Black Hole (which I love) was a long time ago.

[mkpunk]

[quote=AFtrEFkt;42357637]That's what I meant: DoFP's retcon eliminates the need to produce a dedicated reboot. At the very end, Scott and Jean are both back.

LOL. There is absolutely no need to reference something like The Force Awakens. Everyone knew its take would be monstrous, even if it made The Phantom Spinach look like The Godfather.

Hence, Blade was "technically" a hit. It didn't cost that much, and it did quite well.

The point is that box office could be made back in an opening weekend or make back a significant amount. Blade was a hit based on the budget while all of the X-Men movies have been true hits making 150m+.

She-Thing (Sharon Ventura) looks exactly like The Thing.

That's the one I was thinking of.

This is Ms. Thing aka Darla Deering (first appearance: 2012). She's a human in a power suit. Stupid character, IMO.

Yeah it looks silly and came out during the dark ages of Fantastic Four when it became Future Foundation.

Awful. Generic. He looks like a merc, not the Wolverine.

He is Wolverine none the less.

Apocalypse won't be better than First Class. None of them will, until somehow, some way, Singer leaves his post. Just MHO.

I'll have to disagree with you on that because Days of Future Past was just slightly better than First Class and the Apocalypse trailer was epic. I mean I heard that Jean Grey line and Sophie Turner sounded like the voice actor from the 90's X-Men animated series as that will always be my Jean voice.

The FF were inspired by the DC's Challengers of the Unknown. In one issue, one of the Challengers gets hit with cosmic radiation and temporarily exhibits some powers that later show up in the FF. The only difference was the Human Torch, who, like Captain America, was a very old character who was rebooted.

I can see that BUT Challengers were Fantastic Four but non-powered. Johnny Storm and the Jim Hammond Human Torches are like comparing the Alan Scott and Jay Garrick versions of Green Lantern and The Flash with Hal Jordan and Barry Allen. They have names and similar base powers but not the personalities and more modernized tweeks. Remember Hammond was an android that caught fire. Captain America and Namor were the only two true Marvel Golden Age characters to fully transfer into the Silver Age.

The X-Men appeared three months after the Doom Patrol. Both teams were led by a mentor in a wheelchair. That's not a coincidence. Check out this quote by creator-writer Arnold Drake:

There are similarities, there's also similarities in The Wrestler and Birdman but they also differ in their own ways. Doom Patrol were virtually a Fantastic Four (just look at looks and powers of the initial characters) but with no link between the individuals other than being brought together The Chief. X-Men were brought together by Professor X BUT all had their powers come from birth (though some villains got powers from artifacts and experimentation or even terrigensys (after House of M.))

Yeah, there's a bit of juggling. Evans did say recently that Marvel's got him for as long as they want him. He knows who butters his bread.

He is clearly now but at one point he wanted to put his toes in the water elsewhere. Perhaps after Infinity War 2 is released, he may be fine enough to put the shield back on his forearm. That said, while ideally you were right, the way they are building into these situations are going pretty good actually.

How is Rogue One an "if"? It's a Star Wars movie. Star Trek Beyond can't singlehandedly slam the door shut on, well, anything. The Black Hole (which I love) was a long time ago.

The Space Opera genre depends on how the other films go. Should Star Trek Beyond be a step back, we may not see more like a Black Hole reboot (something Disney looked to do.) Rogue One is an if despite being a Star Was film because it is the first movie in the Anthology/Story series of Star Wars movie and is an untested idea of a film series.

[vision33r]

I just hope they stop making Wolverine the center of every X-Men movie. Logan in the comic books always disappears for awhile and only comes back in time of need.