French is drastically deteriorating in Montréal, and its suburbs are anglicizing: Soon an Anglo-city? (private schools, university)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by BIMBAM

Is it realistically under threat in this area though? The story these statistics tell me are the same one I see everywhere in Canada - that of immigration to Canadian cities by overseas allophones. I do not feel that human cultural diversity in the world was diminished because immigrants joined the existing populations in places like Calgary or Vancouver. Likewise, Montreal remains Montreal. Like all things, everything changes, but it still stays the same. Quebec isn't losing francophones, other people are just joining them, and Quebec's communities are growing larger, these things aren't zero sum. The cultural trajectory for Quebec remains one that will see French Canadian culture continue to become ever more secure and self-assured in the province while, I hope, becoming so secure that it won't feel threatened by the presence of minority cultural identities. Montreal will still be a predominantly French speaking city when I am an old man, but I am also willing to bet that it will be a diverse, cosmopolitan place - and more interesting and vibrant than it even is today.

These are all good points.


But I was responding to the title of the thread and the OP which was alluding to Montreal as an "anglo city". More like Toronto or, even better, maybe a big Ottawa - a diverse, cosmopolitan city that functions in English with something of a mushy, marginalized francophone rump identity on the side.


This, IMO, would be a loss for human cultural diversity.

[Mouldy Old Schmo]

Aren’t there a lot of Francophones in Montreal who are monolingual?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo

Aren’t there a lot of Francophones in Montreal who are monolingual?

It's in the vicinity of 40% of the total population that speaks only French I'd say.

They are mostly people of French Canadian origin but also included in that 40% would also be a number of immigrants who speak only Arabic and French, or only Vietnamese and French, only Spanish and French, etc.

[ColdAilment]

As an American with no background knowledge on this matter, besides possibly the loss of identity of an area, is this really a bad thing? There can't be much if any advantage to knowing French in a world that is increasingly dependent on people knowing English, which is the most spoken language globally.

Perhaps not on the same scale as Montreal, however, New Orleans was once known for native French speakers, which have basically all but dried up today. However, New Orleans is still a great city and from an outsider's perspective has lost none of its edge.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ColdAilment

As an American with no background knowledge on this matter, besides possibly the loss of identity of an area, is this really a bad thing? There can't be much if any advantage to knowing French in a world that is increasingly dependent on people knowing English, which is the most spoken language globally.

Perhaps not on the same scale as Montreal, however, New Orleans was once known for native French speakers, which have basically all but dried up today. However, New Orleans is still a great city and from an outsider's perspective has lost none of its edge.

The highlighted portion is really a non-issue, because when Montreal and even Quebec need to deal with the outside world that speaks English (which includes the rest of Canada BTW), we can do that in English just fine.


The issue is more with what language is primarily internally in Montreal/Quebec. I don't see why anyone from outside here would care about that or that it would be any of their business. (Not being snarky here, just frank.)

[QuebecOpec]

Originally Posted by ColdAilment

As an American with no background knowledge on this matter, besides possibly the loss of identity of an area, is this really a bad thing? There can't be much if any advantage to knowing French in a world that is increasingly dependent on people knowing English, which is the most spoken language globally.

Perhaps not on the same scale as Montreal, however, New Orleans was once known for native French speakers, which have basically all but dried up today. However, New Orleans is still a great city and from an outsider's perspective has lost none of its edge.

It is saddening to me that most US-Americans measure the value of a language by its economic significance and that French-speakers need to justify themselves for using French and demanding French knowledge from migrants.

New Orleans is a very good example for a historically French city that has sunken into the Anglophone ocean, I just checked wikipedia, and it told me that Vietnamese (1,7%) is more often spoken than French (1.0%) as an everyday language in New Orleans, and that French is an irrelevant language there.
Franco-Montréalais don't want to experience the same destiny as New Orleans 100 years ago - though, the scenario is very possible. One Franco-Montréalais will fall below a critical threshold, English will supersede, just like in New Orleans where French and Creole at the beginning slowly decreased and then once it has fallen below a critical threshold, it was quickly superseded by English.

New Orleans now is only historically French.

It is important to understand, that language does play a big role and that Montréal would have developped into a completely different direction if it had become an Anglo-City in the 20th century.
For example, you may not know it: Montréal now has the largest francophone African, largest Latin American, including the largest Hispanic, and the largest francophone European population of Canada and these groups are also the main influx of all new migrants. It's also the only francophone metropolis in The Americas, also Montréal right now is the only highly developped non-English-speaking metropolis in The Americas. There are many other non-English-speaking metropolises like Mexico City or Santiago de Chile, but Montréal is the only highly developped one in The Americas. All these migrants affect, shape the city in various form and give it a feeling together with the native Québécois, that is nowhere else to be found in America on the same level.

For US-American cities, Latin American immigration is nothing unusual - but it is for Canadian cities, so this is special for Montréal. Québec has an own immigration policy that is different than the rest of Canada, as well as the US. Taking into account all migrant populations, Montréal becomes instantly unique in comparison with the rest of North America.
Toronto, for example, has mainly Asian, East Asian, South East Asian migrants, as well as large number from the rest of Anglo-America, like Jamaica. It shares this features however with several other large cities, so Toronto ain't special in its migrant composition.


Now let us imagine Montréal would have turned into an Anglo-city in the 20th century. What would it be like now? It would have developped into a totally different direction.
First, because it would have become an English-speaking city, it would become a more often chosen destination, this would lead to much higher migration levels.(Montréal right now is below Canadian major cities migration average and this is very good in my opinion because it helps montréal to preserve its francophone character!)


Montréal probably would also have a large Asian, East Asian, Indian, Chinese, etc. population like the rest of other Canadian cities, but it would be uninteresting for people from Haiti or francophones from Belgium. Also, since Montréal would have become an Anglo-city, it would also have large-scale Anglo-migration from the US and Anglo-Canada, turing Montréal into a English-multicultural mishmash city like the rest of North America currently is. Since migration would be at much higher rates, Québécois culture would rapidly disappear and be replaced by Anglo-American culture.

I have only been to very few US-American cities, mostly in New York State and New England and in my opinion Boston is the closest US-American equivalent to Montréal, there are smoe similarities. Montréal, as an Anglo-city, would therefore become a Canadian Boston.
Yes, Montréal would be like Boston, just larger, Montréal would basically be a large Boston, if it turned English. Strangely, in such a situation, Boston would also become less special because it would be rivaled by Montréal (same language, similar architecture, Boston feels relatively European-american mixed, so does Montréal). Boston gets the typical American visitors bonus preference because of the "I have been two both Boston and Montréal, actually I loved both cities, but in Montréal..can you imagine..there were signs...in FRENCH ONLY.... In Boston I understood more...so I like Boston more" mentality. We don't need two Bostons. One "Anglo-Boston" in New England is fine, just like one "Franco-Boston" in "New France" is fine and unparalleled, and it should remain so.


When British or Norwegian people think of North America, they think of New York, Los Angeles (and maybe Washington) first. No one in Europe thinks of New Orleans first when they think of North America. New Orleans may be nice, but it is irrelevant for Europeans.

Also basically most people in Europe,when directly ask, will not associate New Orleans with its French history, they won't even know, they will associate new Orleans with Hurrican Katrina and Jazz culture.

When French people think of North America, however, they think first of New York and Québec, including Montréal and Los Angeles. Québec is in the front line. Montréal is the second-largest native French-speaking city outside of Paris, and Paris and Montréal are the only big urban francophone cities in the world, if Montréal turned English, this would significantly affect the rest of the francophone world. The francophone world already is becoming more and more irrelevant and without Montréal it would become even more irrelevant and lose a main centre (metro: 4 million inhabitants, next largest city would be Lyon/Marseille with 1,3 million people in their metros, so much smaller) Montréal is popular for French people, they come in increasing numbers, Montréal is the gate for French people into Canada and North East America.

If Montréal had become Anglo, it would be no more interesting than any standard North american big city for French people, it would most likely be irrelevant like New Orleans for all Europeans.
It would have none of the unique charactersticts that is has right now.

Yeah, I know that French is no more a global language and that it has become irrelevant, even super irrelevant in The Americas with English, Spanisch,Portuguese with over 300, 400, 200 Million speakers...French is tiny. I don't even expect US-Americans to learn French, but I want them to respect, that we in Québec want to live in a francophone province with a francophone metropolis and that we want the French language to be the sole dominant and normal language in Québec and we want to have the right to force migrants to learn French and to restrict the excessive use of English in working environment.

That's why I think Montréal would be a much less greater city, and that America would would have one pearl less.

[BIMBAM]

Originally Posted by Acajack

These are all good points.


But I was responding to the title of the thread and the OP which was alluding to Montreal as an "anglo city". More like Toronto or, even better, maybe a big Ottawa - a diverse, cosmopolitan city that functions in English with something of a mushy, marginalized francophone rump identity on the side.


This, IMO, would be a loss for human cultural diversity.

Sure, I would agree that this wouldn't be a favourable outcome.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by QuebecOpec

It is saddening to me that most US-Americans measure the value of a language by its economic significance and that French-speakers need to justify themselves for using French and demanding French knowledge from migrants.

New Orleans is a very good example for a historically French city that has sunken into the Anglophone ocean, I just checked wikipedia, and it told me that Vietnamese (1,7%) is more often spoken than French (1.0%) as an everyday language in New Orleans, and that French is an irrelevant language there.
Franco-Montréalais don't want to experience the same destiny as New Orleans 100 years ago - though, the scenario is very possible. One Franco-Montréalais will fall below a critical threshold, English will supersede, just like in New Orleans where French and Creole at the beginning slowly decreased and then once it has fallen below a critical threshold, it was quickly superseded by English.

New Orleans now is only historically French.

It is important to understand, that language does play a big role and that Montréal would have developped into a completely different direction if it had become an Anglo-City in the 20th century.
For example, you may not know it: Montréal now has the largest francophone African, largest Latin American, including the largest Hispanic, and the largest francophone European population of Canada and these groups are also the main influx of all new migrants. It's also the only francophone metropolis in The Americas, also Montréal right now is the only highly developped non-English-speaking metropolis in The Americas. There are many other non-English-speaking metropolises like Mexico City or Santiago de Chile, but Montréal is the only highly developped one in The Americas. All these migrants affect, shape the city in various form and give it a feeling together with the native Québécois, that is nowhere else to be found in America on the same level.

For US-American cities, Latin American immigration is nothing unusual - but it is for Canadian cities, so this is special for Montréal. Québec has an own immigration policy that is different than the rest of Canada, as well as the US. Taking into account all migrant populations, Montréal becomes instantly unique in comparison with the rest of North America.
Toronto, for example, has mainly Asian, East Asian, South East Asian migrants, as well as large number from the rest of Anglo-America, like Jamaica. It shares this features however with several other large cities, so Toronto ain't special in its migrant composition.


Now let us imagine Montréal would have turned into an Anglo-city in the 20th century. What would it be like now? It would have developped into a totally different direction.
First, because it would have become an English-speaking city, it would become a more often chosen destination, this would lead to much higher migration levels.(Montréal right now is below Canadian major cities migration average and this is very good in my opinion because it helps montréal to preserve its francophone character!)


Montréal probably would also have a large Asian, East Asian, Indian, Chinese, etc. population like the rest of other Canadian cities, but it would be uninteresting for people from Haiti or francophones from Belgium. Also, since Montréal would have become an Anglo-city, it would also have large-scale Anglo-migration from the US and Anglo-Canada, turing Montréal into a English-multicultural mishmash city like the rest of North America currently is. Since migration would be at much higher rates, Québécois culture would rapidly disappear and be replaced by Anglo-American culture.

I have only been to very few US-American cities, mostly in New York State and New England and in my opinion Boston is the closest US-American equivalent to Montréal, there are smoe similarities. Montréal, as an Anglo-city, would therefore become a Canadian Boston.
Yes, Montréal would be like Boston, just larger, Montréal would basically be a large Boston, if it turned English.


When British or Norwegian people think of North America, they think of New York, Los Angeles (and maybe Washington) first. No one in Europe thinks of New Orleans first when they think of North America. New Orleans may be nice, but it is irrelevant for Europeans.

Also basically most people in Europe,when directly ask, will not associate New Orleans with its French history, they won't even know, they will associate new Orleans with Hurrican Katrina and Jazz culture.

When French people think of North America, however, they think first of New York and Québec, including Montréal and Los Angeles. Québec is in the front line. Montréal is the second-largest native French-speaking city outside of Paris, and Paris and Montréal are the only big urban francophone cities in the world, if Montréal turned English, this would significantly affect the rest of the francophone world. The francophone world already is becoming more and more irrelevant and without Montréal it would become even more irrelevant and lose a main centre (metro: 4 million inhabitants, next largest city would be Lyon/Marseille with 1,3 million people in their metros, so much smaller) Montréal is popular for French people, they come in increasing numbers, Montréal is the gate for French people into Canada and North East America.

If Montréal had become Anglo, it would be no more interesting than any standard North american big city for French people, it would most likely be irrelevant like New Orleans for all Europeans.
It would have none of the unique charactersticts that is has right now.

Yeah, I know that French is no more a global language and that it has become irrelevant, even super irrelevant in The Americas with English, Spanisch,Portuguese with over 300, 400, 200 Million speakers...French is tiny. I don't even expect US-Americans to learn French, but I want them to respect, that we in Québec want to live in a francophone province with a francophone metropolis and that we want the French language to be the sole dominant and normal language in Québec and we want to have the right to force migrants to learn French and to restrict the excessive use of English in working environment.

That's why I think Montréal would be a much less greater city, and that America would would have one pearl less.

You're wasting your time with people who think like that.

[DawnMTL]

English *is* the global business language, though. I work for a multinational corporation of more than 135,000 people (employees and contractors) all around the world. Everywhere around the world. Business is conducted in English by all of them.

[jonsereed]

Originally Posted by ColdAilment

As an American with no background knowledge on this matter, besides possibly the loss of identity of an area, is this really a bad thing? There can't be much if any advantage to knowing French in a world that is increasingly dependent on people knowing English, which is the most spoken language globally.

Perhaps not on the same scale as Montreal, however, New Orleans was once known for native French speakers, which have basically all but dried up today. However, New Orleans is still a great city and from an outsider's perspective has lost none of its edge.

We are talking about a weird tribe here, they have all kinds of wacky laws in the books which managed to chase away most old-money anglos and other success driven people while striving to attract french speaking hunter-gatherers.

With its geography and resources Quebec should be an economic powerhouse instead of a hotbed of paranoid nationalism.