What if the Twin Cities.... (Minneapolis, St. Paul: look for a job, neighborhoods, to buy)

[knke0204]

....Weren't the biggest metro area in the State?

What do you guys think? How different would the political, cultural climate be if the Twin Cities weren't the biggest metro in the State? How would it look? Which metro has or would have the most potential to be the biggest?

I always find it fascinating that the state only has one significant metro area- Pro Sports, Politically, etc.

Look at Ohio- Cleveland, Cincinnati, Columbus, etc.

Texas has- Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Austin

Illinois is more like MN with JUST Chicago. Michigan is kind of the same with Just Detroit.

So... What if Rochester was a city with a bunch of suburbs with a population of around 450,000 people? What if the 'Twin Ports' were bigger than the 'Twin Cities'? If Duluth had maybe 400,000 and Superior with 250,000?
Would Minnesotans be as united as we are without our Nucleus of the Twin Cities?

[uptown_urbanist]

Are Minnesotans united? I guess that would be my first question. Do people from outside of the Twin Cities feel any special affinity with Minneapolis or St. Paul, and vice-versa? I'm not so sure they do. I admit that in general I don't spend a lot of time thinking about most places in Minnesota. I'm far more familiar with other big cities (big or bigger) than I am with any other city in MN, although I have plenty of good memories of visiting places like Duluth. (and I am interested in MN and its towns and rural areas; I hope to systematically start exploring more of it over the coming year or two; I just don't think I've ever felt all that "united" as a Minnesotan, except maybe during visits to the State Fair.)

I'd be thrilled if there was another big metro area in MN, because one of the things I consider to be a downside about Minneapolis is its distance from other big cities. On the other hand, I think another metro area that is as sprawling as the Twin Cities would be a very bad thing, as the last thing MN needs is yet more land gobbled up by low-density sprawl. A much bigger and dense (but compact)Duluth would be great, though.

[knke0204]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

Are Minnesotans united? I guess that would be my first question. Do people from outside of the Twin Cities feel any special affinity with Minneapolis or St. Paul, and vice-versa? I'm not so sure they do. I admit that in general I don't spend a lot of time thinking about most places in Minnesota. I'm far more familiar with other big cities (big or bigger) than I am with any other city in MN, although I have plenty of good memories of visiting places like Duluth. (and I am interested in MN and its towns and rural areas; I hope to systematically start exploring more of it over the coming year or two; I just don't think I've ever felt all that "united" as a Minnesotan, except maybe during visits to the State Fair.)

I'd be thrilled if there was another big metro area in MN, because one of the things I consider to be a downside about Minneapolis is its distance from other big cities. On the other hand, I think another metro area that is as sprawling as the Twin Cities would be a very bad thing, as the last thing MN needs is yet more land gobbled up by low-density sprawl. A much bigger and dense (but compact)Duluth would be great, though.

Maybe united wasn't the best word to use. I guess what I was getting at was whether you're in Hallock, MN or Pipestone, MN or Tower, MN or Albert Lea, MN or Caledonia, MN, you can probably find Vikings, Twins, and Wild fans. Most people who live in these places probably look at the Twin Cities as the nucleus of their state-Center of Politics, commerce, the "big city". My cousins from Detroit Lakes grew up AVID Gopher fans. What's their connection? No one in their family went there. They never lived in the Twin Cities. It was just their state's biggest school in the biggest city. Had maybe Duluth been a city of 500,000 and UMD was big as or bigger than the U, maybe they would have been avid Bulldog fans. Or maybe even if Fargo-Moorhead was a giant metro area, they'd be Bison fans.

I would love another big metro. I always feel like the Twin Cities has this Superiority complex to the rest of the state. I hate the term Outstate MN. The metro papers and media rarely shows any recognition to any other towns outside the metro. Even in social culture, at least for my age you see a lot of "Where you from?", oh Montevideo, I dont know where that is, I'm from the "Cities"..Actually kind of similar to California where those who live in LA County will be quick to chirp up that "I'm from LA"

Minnesota is a large state, I wouldn't expect Minnesotans to be 'united', but I do know every Minnesotan would call the Twin Cites THE 'big city' in their state. Ask that to a Californian, Texan, New Yorker, Floridian, heck even Missouri has KC and STL.

Wisconsin is even more unique in the sense that they have GB, Madison and MKE. Their small-mid sized cities are much better than Minnesota's too with places like Oshkosh, Sheboygan, Appleton, etc.

[ColdRedRain]

That almost happened actually before the Great Depression. The Twin Ports were on pace to become the next big lakefront urban area in the country before the Depression hit and nobody wanted to buy American iron or cars anymore.

But yeah, the state would be a lot different. For one, we wouldn't be cheering for the Minnesota Wild/Twins/Timberwolves/Vikings, we'd probably be cheering for the Minneapolis Lakers, Duluth Superiors, Saint Paul Fighting Saints, Minneapolis Marines or the Minneapolis Millers. Secondly, you'd see a lot of downstate/upstate culture like California or Florida has.

[west336]

Boy, it's hard to beieve that there could be a metro as large/larger than the Twin Cities that is COLDER, considering the Twin Cities is the coldest "major" metro is the U.S. and top 5 in the world.

[Radical_Car]

I remember hearing a lot of people discussing if Duluth wasn't so cold and so far north that it would be much bigger then it is today.

Though it is very interesting to think about if there was another big metro area in Minnesota.

[bcgr]

Originally Posted by Radical_Car

I remember hearing a lot of people discussing if Duluth wasn't so cold and so far north that it would be much bigger then it is today.

I don't think this is true. There are many cities much colder and more isolated than Duluth, but are bigger. Even then, the Cities are huge and are not that much warmer than here. This city (as any other city) has also risen and fallen due to the economy. In its first few decades, Duluth boomed and then became practically abandoned several times before the 1900s. Or now, when all the steel mills and nearby mines are gone we've been shrinking again. Nobody moves here to look for a job, much less a decent-paying one. People will move to where they can find good jobs, we've just not been doing good in that area for a long time. Growth has less to do with climate than most people think.

[uptown_urbanist]

I think climate has a role in growth, but agree that it's not the most important factor. If anything, Duluth's amazing location on the lake is a major benefit that the Twin Cities lack; Duluth's hills and waterfront location is a bit San Francisco-esque in that way. Most people don't move for physical beauty alone, though.

[knke0204]

Originally Posted by Radical_Car

I remember hearing a lot of people discussing if Duluth wasn't so cold and so far north that it would be much bigger then it is today.

Though it is very interesting to think about if there was another big metro area in Minnesota.

I don't really think this is true, however I don't understand how some people settled in Duluth. Even today with technology and modern conveniences, it's still darn near death trying to get around in January here. Temps of -20s in the 1800s, I dont know how they did it.

Anyways, the real reason behind the downfall of Duluth is Steel. Many say that Duluth is where the Rust Belt began, the downfall of Major Cities like Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Erie, Gary, Detroit.

Duluth was on pace to become one of the biggest cities in the Midwest. The time of the 1920s and 1930s, Duluth had more millionairs per capita than anyother city in the WORLD. Duluth planners and enthusiasts were expecting the city's population to bulge to 300,000-400,000 people. That's why there are such extensive streets and neighborhoods that resemble more of a larger city than a mid-sized midwestern town. Duluth also has a very impressive downtonw for a city of it's size- 85,000 people and multiple high rises and skyways, was originally suited or planned to suit upwards to around 300,000 people. Much of the city's planning and design were done with the idea of catering a future that would hold up to 300,000 residents. At one point Duluth had 5 high schools, now that number is down to 2 next year. The city has finally maintained a stable population, but i would hardly argue it's because of the weather that they started leaving.

I always look at Duluth as the 'big city' that never was. The city at one point had so much potential...Had a few things gone a different way, we may be looking at the "TWIN PORTS" overshadowing the "TWIN CITIES"

You are kind of right though, when settling the upper midwest and more notably St. Paul, reports were sent back to Washington DC and some desribed the area that would become the Twin Cities as "inhospitable" and "similar to a Sibera" and "nobody in their right mind should settle there, as it's suicide"

[knke0204]

Originally Posted by ColdRedRain

That almost happened actually before the Great Depression. The Twin Ports were on pace to become the next big lakefront urban area in the country before the Depression hit and nobody wanted to buy American iron or cars anymore.

But yeah, the state would be a lot different. For one, we wouldn't be cheering for the Minnesota Wild/Twins/Timberwolves/Vikings, we'd probably be cheering for the Minneapolis Lakers, Duluth Superiors, Saint Paul Fighting Saints, Minneapolis Marines or the Minneapolis Millers. Secondly, you'd see a lot of downstate/upstate culture like California or Florida has.

I'd like to see an inner state rivalry between pro teams. Similar to the Browns Vs. Bengals or Steelers Vs. Eagles or Rams Vs. Chiefs or Texans Vs. Cowboys. That'd be kind of neat.