The Green Line (Minneapolis, St. Paul: neighborhood, schools, DMV)

[xandrex]

Originally Posted by golfgal

If that is the case then, ridership is going to be very low....it's not waking distance to many residences



Err..she's admitted she is afraid to cross streets with more than two lanes on many occasions, is not typical for someone that doesn't drive and relies on her feet to get around...and something most 10 year olds know how to do safely...so, atypical..

How is it not within walking distance to many residences? What do you think surrounds University Avenue? There are thousands of houses and apartments along University Avenue, not to mention thousands more in DT Minneapolis and DT St. Paul.


UU doesn't have a fear of crossing streets in the sense of some phobia. This is feeling more comfortable with narrower roads with slower-moving traffic. I doubt you could deny that's nicer than trying to cross a highway (which is what University sort of was before the light rail). I don't have exact measurements or anything, but it appears to have been at least as wide as 150th Street in Rosemount is, except with the sidewalks flush against the road. Can you honestly say with a straight face that crossing 150th with traffic whizzing by is as equally pleasant as, say, 149th by the park?

[uptown_urbanist]

Wow... what a total, complete misrepresentation of my thoughts. Although yes, I don't enjoy crossing very busy, multiple-laned streets with traffic turning on me -- for the very sane reason that those locations are not particularly safe for pedestrians, and the locations in which they are located are designed for high-volume automobile traffic, not pedestrians. I really don't think it's so radical to prefer to walk next to and cross streets with slower traffic, safe crossings, and all the other well-researched options that have been documented to make streets safer and more pleasant for walkers. In fact, I'd say it's more atypical for pedestrians to enjoy those types of streetscapes.

Now University doesn't fit into that category -- you tend to find those types of big intersections out in more auto-dominated areas in the suburbs, and not as frequently within city limits -- but if you've walked in the area, you would know that the traffic volume is high from both sides with the traffic often moving pretty fast, and it is generally much safer to cross at an intersection with a light.

[rogead]

I work in retail in the Midway area. There's no doubt that our business suffered during construction--we were down about fifteen percent, but it did rebound when the heavy construction was over.

This corridor represents some of the most densely populated parts of the metro area. The Blue Line connected the two most important economic centers in the metro, Downtown Minneapolis and The MOA/airport. The Green Line will connect the other two key centers, Downtown St Paul and The U of M. Together; these two lines will connect the overwhelming majority of the entertainment, shopping, cultural, and economic destinations in the metro.

Nearly a quarter of metro area jobs are located in these four economic centers, and hundreds of thousands of people will be within walking distance of an LRT station. The MTC is also re-aligning some bus routes to feed into the light rail system.

The Green Line will allow those in the East Metro to easily connect to Downtown Minneapolis, The MOA, and the airport via Downtown St Paul. It will, among other advantages, have a unifying effect on Minneapolis and St Paul.

As Uptown Urbanist stated, assigning colors to the various lines is commonplace. Urban transit planners realized that colors for routes are more intuitively remembered than are localized place names. This is especially true for those who are visiting from out of town. I haven't lived in Boston for thirty years, but whenever I go back, I orient myself based upon The MBTA subway color scheme. Even when I just think of the city; I automatically remember locations in terms of orange, green, red. and blue.

[Thedosius]

Originally Posted by Yosh01

Of course you are correct in this. The "green" line will be transformative. The question will be toward what end? It will be useful for anyone commuting from downtown to downtown and the U of MN, but I don't see many advantages for anyone who lives in the area, especially the thousands now trapped between the green line and I94. It's a form of urban renewal and I feel sorry for all the people and businesses who will be paying a personal price for the transformation. The old University avenue was people and auto friendly in the sense that one could nearly always park in front of a small business store, dash across the street to another, or ride a bicycle. Now the green line has formed a long east-west barrier - difficult to cross by foot or by car with no more street parking for any business and no more biking.

I disagree with most of this.

As far as the 'old University avenue' being "people and auto friendly", I would disagree that it was people friendly at all. Big Box retail killed that. If people friendly means walking several blocks between large businesses through the moat of auto-friendly parking lots and roads, then perhaps you have a point there.

Furthermore, my experience with light rail systems both in Minneapolis and abroad indicates to me that crossing University Avenue will be no more difficult with light rail than it was without. Prior to light rail, you had two lanes of traffic in either direction. Now, you have one in either direction and two trains. Unlike that second lane of traffic, trains come (at best) once every 10 minutes, so now most of the time you have two active lanes of traffic and two lanes of "dead space" except at intervals when trains are around. I think that speaking specifically from a pedestrian perspective light rail is an improvement over 4 lanes of traffic.

Biking on University? I don't know that I believe there ever was a good time for it. I know I certainly would not have done it (but I tend to be over-cautious when biking as I prefer to not put my life in the hands of car drivers).

If anything, LRT might make things marginally worse for drivers, better for pedestrians, and probably a wash for bicyclists.

I can tell you one thing, however- I'm more likely to make trips to On's Kitchen and Ngon just as soon as I am able to take one train downtown and then catch the other one to University. I spoke to several business owners along the Hiawatha Line (particularly the one at Cap's Grille) and the boost in their business from LRT was noticeable and enduring. I suspect overall that LRT will be a positive for businesses on University. The disruption caused is unfortunate but even if we stayed with roads such disruptions are unavoidable until we invent asphalt that never needs to be relaid.

[StanleyVegas]

Originally Posted by Thedosius

I disagree with most of this.

As far as the 'old University avenue' being "people and auto friendly", I would disagree that it was people friendly at all. Big Box retail killed that. If people friendly means walking several blocks between large businesses through the moat of auto-friendly parking lots and roads, then perhaps you have a point there.

Furthermore, my experience with light rail systems both in Minneapolis and abroad indicates to me that crossing University Avenue will be no more difficult with light rail than it was without. Prior to light rail, you had two lanes of traffic in either direction. Now, you have one in either direction and two trains. Unlike that second lane of traffic, trains come (at best) once every 10 minutes, so now most of the time you have two active lanes of traffic and two lanes of "dead space" except at intervals when trains are around. I think that speaking specifically from a pedestrian perspective light rail is an improvement over 4 lanes of traffic.

Biking on University? I don't know that I believe there ever was a good time for it. I know I certainly would not have done it (but I tend to be over-cautious when biking as I prefer to not put my life in the hands of car drivers).

If anything, LRT might make things marginally worse for drivers, better for pedestrians, and probably a wash for bicyclists.

I can tell you one thing, however- I'm more likely to make trips to On's Kitchen and Ngon just as soon as I am able to take one train downtown and then catch the other one to University. I spoke to several business owners along the Hiawatha Line (particularly the one at Cap's Grille) and the boost in their business from LRT was noticeable and enduring. I suspect overall that LRT will be a positive for businesses on University. The disruption caused is unfortunate but even if we stayed with roads such disruptions are unavoidable until we invent asphalt that never needs to be relaid.

Agreed that the old University was pretty lame as a bike route, at least on the St. Paul end. Sure there were shoulders before, but on-street parking meant dealing with doors opening and cars pulling out without looking. I always tended use Minnehaha to the north anyway, since there is much less traffic. In Frogtown and Midway, Charles Ave. (2 blocks north) will be the designated bike route.

With the exception of the major intersection crossings, University is basically two one-way streets separated by the tracks and barriers. Drivers tend to take it slower now (because of the smaller feel to the lanes), and there are plenty of pedestrian crosswalks between signals. There is still plenty of side-street parking for smaller businesses - bigger places often have their own parking… AND the area has much better lighting now.

BTW - Ngon closed down early this month due to burst pipes from that first deep freeze. They used the downtime to improve their front entrance, and are reopening this week, so investment continues in the area.

[uptown_urbanist]

I will say that parking is a real problem where I work on University -- but it was before construction, too, with part of that just that so many people in this area seem to expect free parking adjacent to the door, and are grumpy if asked to pay or to walk a block. (so I guess the problem is not so much lack of parking nearby, but rather it not being exactly the kind of parking people want). We're really looking forward to having LRT open, as I do think there's going to be increased numbers of our patrons who will take train but will not take bus.

There are also Nice Ride locations along University in the Minneapolis sections these days, which is a good sign; I'm not so sure I want to bike there, but I think it's a promising sign that Nice Ride is there, along with increasing numbers of bike racks at businesses along the street.

[golfgal]

Didn't Nice Ride just file for bankruptcy??

[uptown_urbanist]

Originally Posted by golfgal

Didn't Nice Ride just file for bankruptcy??

No -- you're thinking of the company that currently supplies their bikes. Nice Ride is actually expanding, although there is some concern that because of the supplier's problems Nice Ride won't be able to get as many new bikes as they'd like in time for the season. In any case, Nice Ride is doing just fine.

[Minnesota Spring]

I can never understand why many suburbanites hate things like walking, biking, sustainable living, mass transit, preservation and community cohesiveness.
Why are these considered bad things? I can't think of one reason.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by Minnesota Spring

I can never understand why many suburbanites hate things like walking, biking, sustainable living, mass transit, preservation and community cohesiveness.
Why are these considered bad things? I can't think of one reason.

They don't...why would you think they do...they do hate PAYING for something they can't use but people in the suburbs bike, walk, etc. and have cohesive, close communities--probably more so than in the urban sector. Why do the urbanites think otherwise??