Why do road projects take years and years to complete? (Richmond: contractor, prices)

[Ed Ferris]

Richmond actually is taking advantage of its position between Dayton and Indianapolis. A distribution center and the Heartland pet food company have recently opened on I-70. I recently learned that Holland Colours, who make pigments for industrial use, are on Industrial Road in the north part of town.
The destruction of the downtown roads for three years has put the department store there and the long-established toy store out of business, as well as some of the small storefronts. "Shop local" is a bad joke when you can't drive the streets safely.
Our one tourist attraction is the Victorian architecture. Unfortunately, our city and county government is stupid and corrupt. They spent a six million dollar grant on a cheap, generic plaza and bike paths (which are also not finished in a reasonable time) going nowhere. Not a thought about rehabbing the slum properties the paths go past or about making them to a Victorian theme. Apparently the politically-favored architect doesn't do Victorian.

[rrtechno]

I did a little research for you. These tore up streets for the last three years that you speak of are not the same streets, but rather several different projects. The current one on 27 is not a simple resurfacing, but rather a complete rebuild including a realignment of a portion of the road, new sewers, water mains, and traffic signals. In addition, the road has not been completely closed during this time, but lanes have been kept open to allow through traffic to continue. Closing the road completely could have reduced time, but imagine the uproar then. I think you really ought to look at the whole picture and think things through.

https://www.in.gov/indot/3589.htm

[Ed Ferris]

Sorry,rrtechno, I live here and I know what streets have been closed, and for how long. Even though there is one lane (out of four) open on South A (which is US 40, not US 27), it is rough and several cross streets have been closed. Last week a trench suddenly appeared across the pavement at South A and Tenth and you have to slow down to 5 mph to avoid knocking your front wheels out of alignment. A--hole contractor doesn't care.
North A (US 40 again) is restricted to two lanes, instead of four, and has the same slow-down bumpy patches.
"Closing the road completely could have reduced time". No. There is nobody working on the road most days. Not a single work crew today, for example. It doesn't matter how big the project is when nobody is working on it.
I am looking at the whole picture. I understand that the Indiana DOT is run by the contractors and we citizens just don't matter. I have seen road work done in a timely and competent manner and know that this job could have been finished in three months. I have also seen the same kind of dragging-it-out work in Bedford, Indiana, with the same lack of crews and the same disregard for the citizens.

[Serious Conversation]

I'm going to throw a little rant in here.

I lived in Carmel for three years. Carmel's roads were much better than the city of Indy's, but weren't great by any means.

I had three flats in three years in Indy - two of which I can correlate back to potholes that would damn near break your back driving over them. I've heard so many people use the weather as an excuse. Yes, you do get a lot of frost heave, freeze-thaw cycles in Indianapolis. With that said, I'm in Maine this week on vacation. The Maine turnpike is just butter smooth. City roads aren't quite as nice, but are generally fine and in much, much better shape than anywhere around Indianapolis.

I don't understand how a state so much colder overall than Indiana that still gets the freeze-thaw thing and has far less warmer weather to work with has few road problems. Indiana's roads are a massive embarrassment.

[rrtechno]

Colder - Freeze
Warmer - Freeze/Thaw

It is the cycles of freezing and then thawing and then freezing/thawing repeatedly that is more destructive to concrete and asphalt surfaces

[InchingWest]

Why do road projects take years and years to complete?

One of either two scenarios are occurring:

Either,
1. Government employees who have zero incentive to work quickly and who can't be fired.

2. Private contractors who are charging by the hour rather than charging by the mile. If the government was forced to use union labor it's going to cost x10 as much and take x5 as long because they will milk the hell out of any project.

Both systems have their flaws. Either way you or I are not getting the contract, that's left to a friend or relative of the politicians in your state or locality, or at a very minimum someone who's going to kick some of that contract money back as campaign contributions.

Either way, no matter who gets the project, you're going to see guys standing around playing on their phones while watching one guy dig with a shovel. You're going to see guys sleeping in their work trucks in broad daylight on a public road. You're going to see plenty of people walking back and forth and not a whole lot of working on tasks.

It's sad. They do it openly and don't care. They won't get fired. The contractors don't care either because they know that taxpayers are not going to do anything about it. They know that no one is going to say anything and can't prove anything anyway.

The worst part is that in other countries roads last many times longer, even in harsh freeze-thaw climates, because they use better materials that are only a tiny fraction more expensive. Those materials won't be used in America because the contractor is going to want to milk the project again sooner rather than later.

[Rickcin]

Originally Posted by InchingWest

One of either two scenarios are occurring:

Either,
1. Government employees who have zero incentive to work quickly and who can't be fired.

2. Private contractors who are charging by the hour rather than charging by the mile. If the government was forced to use union labor it's going to cost x10 as much and take x5 as long because they will milk the hell out of any project.

Both systems have their flaws. Either way you or I are not getting the contract, that's left to a friend or relative of the politicians in your state or locality, or at a very minimum someone who's going to kick some of that contract money back as campaign contributions.

Either way, no matter who gets the project, you're going to see guys standing around playing on their phones while watching one guy dig with a shovel. You're going to see guys sleeping in their work trucks in broad daylight on a public road. You're going to see plenty of people walking back and forth and not a whole lot of working on tasks.

It's sad. They do it openly and don't care. They won't get fired. The contractors don't care either because they know that taxpayers are not going to do anything about it. They know that no one is going to say anything and can't prove anything anyway.

The worst part is that in other countries roads last many times longer, even in harsh freeze-thaw climates, because they use better materials that are only a tiny fraction more expensive. Those materials won't be used in America because the contractor is going to want to milk the project again sooner rather than later.

Government employees don’t build roads and roadwork is not contracted on an hourly basis!

Most all roadwork contracts are lump sum contract amounts with unit prices included in the bid that are used when specified quantities are different than the contract documents. Usually the contract documents include a timeframe for the work which include financial penalties for going beyond and incentive payments for finishing early.

Most troubled roadwork, either from not finishing on time or ones that enter into legal disputes along the way are those where the design firm have done a horrible gob with the documents and perhaps that issue has to do with the state or DOT trying to save money on the design firm. It’s a complicated process and to just blame the contractor is very often not the case.

[Charlie&Rose]

It`s the same everwhere, they are getting paid big bucks, doing these jobs, so why rush. When the job is done, they may be laid off.

[TJJT]

I know low-on-totem-pole guys on state-contracted road crews.. At least 40k a year and you're usually just waiting and talking about sports..

[Ed Ferris]

When the bike paths were being constructed, I saw a crew of eight persons with none of them working. They weren't on break, either; they were in work positions, holding tools, but not moving.
Now the brand new path is growing grass between the bricks. Did nobody know this would happen? I don't think they want it to look old immediately.